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Topic: Early American lap steel |
Tim Toberer
From:
Nebraska, USA
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Posted 16 May 2022 5:26 am |
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One of my main passions is early American pre-war folk music. When I find a musician I like, I usually try to listen to their entire recorded works to really digest their style. Obviously there are a ton of old "slide" guitar recordings, mostly delta type blues and some various country blues offshoots. Lately, I am especially interested in the guys who played lap style in a more "Hawaiian" style. This seems to be the main distinction between steel and slide guitar. Sometimes you can't really tell if they are lap or upright player, if they are not doing much fretting. I have not found many players who are absolutely known to be lap players. Obviously playing lap style creates the limitation of no longer being able to fret in a combo style, but liberates the player to use the slide more freely. Some players did both. I have been trolling the waters to see if there are any musicians I missed along the way. This seems to be a somewhat forgotten period of steel guitar development. Most of what I have read here and elsewhere focus on Josh Graves and the development of the Dobro in bluegrass. On the other side there is Leon Mcauliffe and the development of the Western swing and jazz based styles. Early American Folk music is littered with musicians who defy categorization. Here are the few rare gems I have found. I would love to find more.
Oscar "Buddy" Woods (my favorite!)
Casey Bill Weldon
Cliff Carlisle
Jimmy Tarlton (brilliant later solo recording if you haven't heard it)
Black Ace
Bob Dunn
Played some lap style
Furry Lewis
Bukka White
Kokomo Arnold
Sylvester Weaver (Maybe lap?)
Cryin Sam Collins (probably upright not lap but expressive!)
Frank Hutchinson |
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Robert B Murphy
From:
Mountain View, Arkansas, USA
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Posted 16 May 2022 6:46 am
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There is no distinction between lap and slide or steel guitar. A lap guitar is played by sliding the steel along the strings. Joseph Kekuku is generally credited with inventing the technique and popularizing the hawaiian style. He was a vaudeville touring musician who ended up in Dover, New Jersey. He paved the way for the early great hawaiian players: Sol Hoopi, Frank Fererra, Tau Moe... Just about all the early great pedal steel players started with Oahu method or similar steel lessons that resulted from the '20s hawaiian craze. Hawaiian music, like latin music, was adopted into a lot of popular big band renditions and the steel guitar, be it lap, console, resophonic, or pedal was utilized. The cat was out of the bag then.
Bottleneck style has a different lineage. W.C. Handy said he saw a guy playing a guitar that way, albeit with a pocket knife, in a train station in Mississippi in the late nineteenth century.
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Bob, small o. |
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Bob Womack
From:
Virginia, USA
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Posted 16 May 2022 8:47 am
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And here I was expecting something Colonial.
Bob
_________________
"It is said, 'Go not to the elves for counsel for they will say both no and yes.' "
Frodo Baggins to Gildor Inglorion, The Fellowship of the Ring
THE MUSICIAN'S ROOM (My Little Website) |
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Tim Toberer
From:
Nebraska, USA
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Posted 16 May 2022 8:58 am
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| Quote: |
| Bottleneck style has a different lineage. |
I agree with this, but I guess my post is more about the early players who muddy up the water, like the ones I listed. In the early days, the distinction is much less clear. The divisions between blues, country, jazz and old time are not fully realized. The distinction between bottleneck and lap style is so fuzzy, many times you can't tell the difference. It is unclear how much the early bottleneck players may have been influenced by the Hawaiian style if at all. It seems the Hawaiian players are the common ancestor. These players contributed to the early development of the style that this forum is focused on, yet, I could be wrong, they seem relatively unknown and under appreciated. The guys who are playing "steel guitar" in more of a bottleneck setting etc. Jimmy Tarlton for example plays in a bardic style that draws from all these, but really is something completely unique. I forgot to mention Leadbelly. Most people agree he played a few tunes in lap style. My favorite in low bass tuning.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7NBhsw7F2Y
Oscar Woods plays lap steel in a county, jazz type setting (in Dobro tuning) in a completely unique style that isn't quite blues, jazz or country. Thats what makes this period so interesting and still fresh. You had all these different cultural influences coming together in a new exciting way. I would recommend anyone who hasn't gone down this rabbit hole to give these guys listen. I'm always going back to this period for inspiration. |
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Mike Neer
From:
NJ
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Posted 16 May 2022 9:26 am
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| Blind Willie Johnson always brings up the question of whether he was using a bottleneck or a jack knife, on lap or spanish. His playing is some of the most influential ever of anyone who ever used something to slide across strings. |
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Robert B Murphy
From:
Mountain View, Arkansas, USA
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Posted 16 May 2022 9:37 am
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When you talk about delta players keep in mind that those guys were hired to play white folk's parties too so they included other styles in their performances. Those guys certainly heard and played hawaiian songs although you might never find any on record. Taj Mahal's Giant Step/Ol' Folks album has a cool picture of the band at one of those parties.
When Leon McCauliffe was playing a dobro with Bob Wills he had it tuned to open E. My dear departed friend, Gene Wilson, was pumping gas in Little Rock when Leon stopped for a fill up. He showed Gene how to play Steel Guitar Rag on it. I heard that Josh Graves initially used an E tuning but later used the gbdgbd tuning that has become standard for bluegrass. Nobody can overstate Josh's importance on bluegrass dobro.
If you listen to a blues slide recording and you hear a prominent bass accompanying high slide, you can bet it is bottleneck style and not lap.
The one style you haven't mentioned is sacred steel. It goes way back, primarily in south Florida and Texas. There were and are some pretty great players who only play sacred. I may be mistaken but I think all of those guys play horizontal.
_________________
Bob, small o.
Last edited by Robert B Murphy on 16 May 2022 10:01 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Jack Hanson
From:
San Luis Valley, USA
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Posted 16 May 2022 9:51 am
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| How about Charlie Patton? Lap or bottleneck? Or both? |
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Robert B Murphy
From:
Mountain View, Arkansas, USA
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Posted 16 May 2022 10:04 am
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I think only bottleneck but I'll ask a friend from Leland about it. Spoonfull really sounds like bottle neck and the fret rattle is pretty prominent.
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Bob, small o. |
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Lloyd Graves
From:
New York, USA
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Posted 16 May 2022 1:20 pm
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I love the stuff you are mentioning. When the lines between styles were so blurred and the stole from one another. Sol Ho'opi'i, Jim and Bob, King Benny Nawahi, and the Los Angeles Biltmore Trio did amazing versions of old swing and blues songs.
I don't know the player, but check out the 6 and 7/8 string band of New Orleans. The Hawaiian guitarist played a lot of trombone lines, while the manolinist played trumpet lines.
If you like Darby and Tarlton, then check out the Dixon Brothers. Most of their solos seem to be done on the high E string, but it's great.
Jimmie Rodgers had some great Hawaiian guitarists, too, but you've got to shift through the material. Everybody does it in Hawaii is pretty great.
Bashful Brother Oswaldisn't my favorite (probably because Roy Acuff eliminated the swing rhythm from everything) but had some gems.
The Hackberry Ramblers (aka the Riverside Ramblers) had a Hawaiian guitarist on their recordings, but it's pretty hidden.
I'll wracked my brains for more. |
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David Ball
From:
North Carolina High Country
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Scott Thomas
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Posted 16 May 2022 4:23 pm
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If you don't already have it, you might like to add this to your collection. It's unique among my lap steel music library for the reasons you describe--several interesting tracks which occupy a place between straight Hawaiian and Blues, such as pop and other world music styles.
https://www.amazon.com/Slidin-Frets-Hawaiian-Guitar-Phenomenon/dp/B00004TE0Y
1 My Little Grass Shack In Kealakekua - Kanui & Lula
2 Pame Sti Honoloulou - Bezos' Hawaiian Orchestra
3 Don't Sell It - Don't Give It Away - Oscar Woods
4 Milenberg Joys - Rodney Rogers' Red Peppers
5 My Little Blue Heaven - Jimmie Tarlton
6 Why My Craf Vex With Me - Emery Cournard
7 Down In Waikiki - Eddy's Hawaiian Serenaders
8 Honolulu Stomp - H.M. Barnes And His Blue Ridge
Ramblers
9 U Like, Noa Like - Tau Moe's Hawaiian Jazzites
10 Mindinao March - Honolulu Players
11 Everybody Does It In Hawaii - King Oliver And His
Orchestra
12 Ghost Dance - Truett And George
13 You'll Never Find A Daddy Like Me - Nelstone's
Hawaiians
14 La Portena Es Una Papa - Les Loups
15 Has My Gal Been Here - Casey Bill
16 Smiles - Jimmy Yates' Boll Weevils
17 Clowin' The Frets - Los Angeles Biltmore Hotel
Trio
18 Caresses Venitiennes - Gino Bordin Hawaiian Orch.
19 Guitar Rag - Sylvester Weaver
20 The Cat's Whiskers - Patt Patterson And His
Champion Pep Riders
21 Happy Hawaiian Blues - Hawaiian Songbirds
22 Drifting And Dreaming - Lawson's Hawaiians
23 Sliding On The Frets - Andy Sannella |
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Andy Volk
From:
Boston, MA
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Andy Volk
From:
Boston, MA
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Peter Funk
From:
Germany
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Posted 17 May 2022 4:53 am
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| Tim Toberer wrote: |
| I forgot to mention Leadbelly. Most people agree he played a few tunes in lap style. |
Talking about Lead Belly: I really like the way, he slides his pocket knife all over the fretboard in "See See Rider":
https://youtu.be/CkTT-hfZsh4
Always fretting the chord, where the melody tone is! |
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Tim Toberer
From:
Nebraska, USA
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Posted 17 May 2022 5:35 am
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Exactly the responses I was hoping for, thanks everybody.  I've got some new leads to follow. Honestly I can't get enough of this stuff. I remember "discovering" Woody Guthrie and Leadbelly in high school and I have never looked back. The more you dig, the more gold you find. There is magic in all these old scratchy recordings that is just missing in modern music. This music grounds me and provides an endless source of comfort, wisdom and inspiration.
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| Tim, check out this essential book: |
Found it at my local library!
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| check out the 6 and 7/8 string band of New Orleans. |
Many years ago I bought a record (because it had a cool cover) by Doc Souchon. The album is a rare gem with him talking about the old days and playing solo guitar and singing some of the old time favorites. I researched him a bit and he is the guitar player in this band, and I believe he is a well known person who was involved in early music history in New Orleans. I have never been able to find these recordings, but I just found them with the magic of the internet. Here is a sample. I want more!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YeFEAtFudCI
On a tangent... I have been doing some soul searching about my own relationship with steel guitar and I am being pulled back to the sounds of 6 strings and simple tunings. There is just something pure about open G and D (A and E) that is hard to deny. It just feels like home. They also lend themselves to solo performance much better than 6th tunings, at least for a novice like me. I will keep my 8 string guitars, but I am unsure at this point if this is the path I want to take. |
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Bob Womack
From:
Virginia, USA
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Posted 17 May 2022 11:23 am
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A few years ago I mixed an album of Nigerian Hausa tribal music where they played the talking drums and Udu and Goje. The Goje was played by plucking and tapping the rim with a thumb ring. It was fascinating stuff!
Bob
_________________
"It is said, 'Go not to the elves for counsel for they will say both no and yes.' "
Frodo Baggins to Gildor Inglorion, The Fellowship of the Ring
THE MUSICIAN'S ROOM (My Little Website) |
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Lloyd Graves
From:
New York, USA
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Michael Lee Allen
From:
Portage Park / Irving Park, Chicago, Illinois
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Posted 18 May 2022 1:31 pm Kokomo Arnold
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| I'm almost positive Arnold played on his lap at all times. None of his recordings sound like bottleneck style with fingered notes. Arnold lived here in Chicago, on the 4400 block of South Calumet Avenue on the Near South Side. He passed away in late 1968. He was known to be left-handed. In 1969 I bought a very heavily used square neck National Tri-Cone Style One from a group of UofChicago students. They lived in Hyde Park, an enclave around the UofChicago, near 53rd Street. They were all jazz fans and went "junking" in the ghetto areas north, west, and south of Hyde Park looking for records. The Tri-Cone turned up in a thrift shop on either East 43rd Street or East 47th Street, both main shopping streets back in the day. It was strung up LEFT-HANDED with ancient strings, the sixth string tuning post was bent and the button missing. I know I bought it in 1969 as I moved to the Lincoln Park-DePaul area in 1970 and I already had it before I moved. The area the guitar turned up in was all-black and had been for decades. It was near where these guys lived and near where Arnold lived as well. I think that I very PROBABLY had Arnold's old guitar or one of his guitars and didn't figure it out until several years afterwards. |
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Tim Toberer
From:
Nebraska, USA
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Posted 19 May 2022 5:43 am
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| Quote: |
| I think that I very PROBABLY had Arnold's old guitar or one of his guitars and didn't figure it out until several years afterwards. |
Do you still have it?? I remember a show on PBS, History Detectives, where they would take peoples stories and try to prove or disprove them. This would be perfect, unfortunately the show is long gone. I remember one episode where a guy claimed he had Bob Dylan's guitar from his first show where he played electric and everyone booed them. There is a famous recording of this show. It turned out they were able to prove it was the guitar. If I remember correctly the roadie had stolen it or something. Bob Dylan would never acknowledge that it is the famous guitar from what I remember.
Speaking of Kokomo, I couldn't find any recordings made after the 1930s. Lap or no lap, makes little difference to me aside from curiosity. He is one of the best ever! It sounds like he was rediscovered and performing in the 60s. I would love to hear what he sounded like. I recently listened through the entire Big Bill Broonzy catalog and it is so interesting to hear how his style changed from the early early days, all the way to the late 50's, since he recorded through the entire period. Considering he lived through almost the entire evolution of the blues and jazz, it is very cool to see how he changed with the times.
Tampa Red hasn't been mentioned yet either. He really hits that sweet spot between blues and jazz. |
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Michael Lee Allen
From:
Portage Park / Irving Park, Chicago, Illinois
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Posted 20 May 2022 7:55 am
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That Tri-Cone is long gone. Fifty plus years ago. Arnold never recorded after WWII. Being "rediscovered" does not mean he started to play again. As far as I know he never did and being here and involved I would have known about it. He was visited and interviewed by French and English researchers/collectors several times, as early as 1959 or 1960. That's "rediscovered". There is a multi-page recollection by one of the French visitors but it's in French and is a slow read for me. I dealt with most of those guys for years selling them records and passing on information. None ever mentioned his instrument or him playing it for them on their visits, let alone him ever playing in pubic again. He stated many times in those interviews that he had no interest in playing or recording again. Too much Google searching and pasting together unverifiable information to create "content".
Tampa Red is another story, more of the same type of crap surfaces all the time.
And changing the subject here are a couple of 4 CD compilations for you, not hard to get or expensive...
"Hotter In Hawaii" JSP 7738
and...
"Blind Willie Johnson and the Guitar Evangelists" JSP 7737 not all the tracks on this one feature slide or lap playing but most do. |
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David Ball
From:
North Carolina High Country
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Posted 20 May 2022 1:29 pm
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Thanks for those compilation suggestions!
Dave |
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Adam Tracksler
From:
Maine, USA
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Posted 20 May 2022 2:52 pm
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| Don’t forget about R Crumb and his cheap suit serenades. A LOTof nice old stuff with amazing lap steel. |
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Bart Bull
From:
New Orleans, USA/Paris FR/Berkeley USSR
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Tim Toberer
From:
Nebraska, USA
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Posted 21 May 2022 5:31 am
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| Quote: |
here are a couple of 4 CD compilations for you, not hard to get or expensive...
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The JSP catalog is amazing. They are the few CD's I still own and consider worth buying. They are great for complete recordings too. I wish I could get ahold of the Milton Brown and Cliff Bruner stuff for the same price. Unfortunately not on the JSP catalog.
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| That Tri-Cone is long gone. Fifty plus years ago. Arnold never recorded after WWII. Being "rediscovered" does not mean he started to play again. As far as I know he never did and being here and involved I would have known about it. |
Off topic slightly, but Michael, I'm guessing you have heard of Louie Bluie . It is a great documentary, filmed in Chicago in the early 80's I think. Sounds like you were there! It gives some very interesting glimpses of Chicago around that time, and highlights one of the greatest unsung heroes of the blues. (mandolin and violin not steel guitar sorry) There were so many forgotten bluesmen wandering around it must have been amazing!( Like New York for jazz) It also shines a light on R Crumb and his drawing style influences. Speaking of Crumb, I haven't heard Bob Brozman mentioned much on this forum at least recently. Anyone interested in this brand of steel guitar playing does certainly need to check him out. He marches to the beat of a different drummer!!
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| Floyd Smith: "Floyd's Guitar Blues" |
There is one I have never heard of. Nice lead on him, seems he was mostly a standard guitar player in some early jazz bands. I'm gonna look for more. |
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Bill McCloskey
From:
Nanuet, NY
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