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Topic: Left-Change (and maybe AND-tune) PSG. |
J D Sauser
From:
Wellington, Florida
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Posted 12 Feb 2022 8:27 am |
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Ever since I touched a first PSG I felt that the tone I got from non-pedal steels what not there anymore, an obvious trade-off for the added possibilities most of us wound up preferring.
Being a "history-buff", I studied the development history of PSGS intensively.
The very first PSG's Harlin Bros. & Gibson Electra Harp had the changer on the left and tried to keep a "clean" bridge. Because the bridge IS the "Holy Grail" of a stringed instrument to most any luthier.
Evidently, they discovered new issues, like "funny" overtones feeding back into the vibrating side of the stings from their right-end mounted keyheads (keys-less evidently wasn't even a "word" back then, even thou, pianos could have shown the way).
They probably even discovered what "we" call "String-Hysterisis: (my spell-checker still won't recognize it as a word, but then my spell checker is smart enough to stay away from steel guitars).
Fender first PSG used the original round bar bridge with a changer behind it first, then added rollers (which created other issues) in an intent to remedy String-Hysterisis and finally went to a changer bridge just like Bigsby and others pave the way to what would become established as the standard layout of PSG's from the 60's (ShoBud, Emmons, etc) on.
I however still think that the "Founding Fathers" of PSG (Harlin and to a certain extent Moore at Gibson) were RIGHT. The bridge should be treated as holly.
In the late 90's fellow steel guitarist and Forumite Robert Segal out of NYC convinced me to put my ideas on paper and together we designed what we prototyped on a lefty MSA. It had a keyless changer-tuner on the left and a clean bridge on the right. Even being crude and basically using fingers with keyless tuning ability on the existing MSA changer, the guitar out-sustained and cleanly out-rung any of the "heavy-weight" steel guitars we had to AB it against (some top brands, I don't see the need to mention. GREAT guitars).
I brought it up to the TSGA Show in early 2000 or 2001. Maurice Anderson, Tom Brumley and John Hughey played it at my room. Bobbe Bowman was so nice to lend us his Evans amp. All sadly missed folks.
Moyers (MoYo Guitars) did Left-Change guitars, but his guitars are also aimed at being BackPack sized.
Anyways, I am looking for people which are like minded and want to chip in here.
Maybe some have prototyped too.
I am willing to share ALL we did.
I'd like to create a public-domain-creativity circle with the aim to build new prototypes together.
With todays 3D printing, CAD drawings being easy to send to parts manufacturers, I believe we can build a couple of prototypes which should bring about a convincing guitar which could go into production or being taken on by an existing builder.
I have an industrial warehouse in North Palm Beach, FL were we build SuperCars. I can offer that.
I may also be inclined to finance myself a prototyping effort I would deem promising.
This here is about CREATIVITY and sharing ideas. If you feel YOUR guitar is better than anything which could be built, feel blessed and brag about it on the PSG forum. If you feel "If It Ain't Broke, Don't Fix It", DON'T, please.
Thanks!... J-D. Sauser
_________________
__________________________________________________________
Was it JFK who said: Ask Not What TAB Can Do For You - Rather Ask Yourself "What Would B.B. King Do?"
A Little Mental Health Warning:
Tablature KILLS SKILLS.
The uses of Tablature is addictive and has been linked to reduced musical fertility.
Those who produce Tablature did never use it.
I say it humorously, but I mean it. |
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Dave Zirbel
From:
Sebastopol, CA USA
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Posted 12 Feb 2022 9:01 am
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I agree that no pedal steel sounds superior to non pedals, in my humble opinion of course! 😊 The closest I’ve heard is a pull/release guitar. I’m not a builder but I tinker a lot. I’ve dreamed of a high functioning pedal steel with a clean bridge and pulls behind the nut. I’ll be following this thread.
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Dave Zirbel-
Sierra S-10 (Built by Ross Shafer),ZB, Fender 400 guitars, various tube and SS amps |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 12 Feb 2022 3:49 pm
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I don't particularly like the "bridge/changer" compromises either. I still have some of my old "keyhead changer" notes…
Open image in new tab on larger screens, and blow up to read written notes. Only drew these as "refreshes" for myself, so short on details. |
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Karlis Abolins
From:
(near) Seattle, WA, USA
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Posted 14 Feb 2022 7:01 am Floating Sound Board (Bodies separated from the Frame)
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This thread really got my interest. My last build, which I no longer own, was designed to sound more like a regular guitar than a pedal steel. I call it a floating body steel. When I built it, I isolated the body from the frame by attaching the changer and tuner to the solid frame and then attaching the body to the changer and tuner so it "floated". I thought that by doing this, I would get more of a 6 string guitar tone and vibe. It was largely unsuccessful at that. It still sounds like a "steel" guitar.
Placing the changer on the tuner end and making a string-through bridge just might make the difference. My lap steel build doesn't do string-through because of the benders but it sounds like a regular guitar.
It might be worthwhile to visit some of Ed Packard's posts. He modified a Sierra to put the tuners on the changers which is a variation on the theme of this post. I don't recall what he did on the other end of the guitar.
I will be following this post with interest.
Karlis |
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J D Sauser
From:
Wellington, Florida
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Posted 15 Feb 2022 5:51 am
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| Georg Sørtun wrote: |
I don't particularly like the "bridge/changer" compromises either. I still have some of my old "keyhead changer" notes…
Open image in new tab on larger screens, and blow up to read written notes. Only drew these as "refreshes" for myself, so short on details. |
Interesting.
After our first prototype we studied two things... one was sound-board to frame separation I will discuss separately and secondly, some suggested that "Keyless" was just not as "musical" or "guitar-like" looking. Some like Bud Carter theorized that one "could not control the overtones as well on a keyless" (I am not sure what he meant to say, but I have my own theory about that, which is that sometimes when you do drastic bar-movements, you "compress" ever-changing (slide) overtones and they seem to "cumulate" at higher frets. One can feel that "energy" trying to "escape" thru under your left hand into the left end of the strings, but to no or little avail... actually, other over-tones seem to happen and sneak back into the sound-side from under the bar and create some "overtones" singing quite noticeably into the high pitch notes... that is further enhanced by "warm" or tube-amps which tend to pick up harmonics more easily.
One tends to subconsciously learn to "handle" that... it's like driving two different sports cars... the act differently and the driver adapts.
I feel that keyhead design tend to do the contrary and can at times suck quite a bit of energy out of the ringing end.
I totally agree that one has a harder time to pass a keyless guitar as a "guitar" or musical instrument to the non-insider.
So, I proceded to sketch various concepts of key-head all pull lower and raise systems.
I see the following main issues:
- since you have to move the keys at 5 or 6 different pivot points, the "changer takes a LOT of space, space which cannot be used for cross shafts.
IF you have a long key head, like certain guitars like a ZB did which often seemed to start the pedals a pos. #2 or #3... that may seem something one can handle, but I think nobody is looking for PSGs to grow bigger again.
Then, one could argue that Keyless guitars are shorter on the left end anyways which moves the pedal and LK array further to the right as well.
- it's more "different" parts... as one would probably like to retain pull-tuning (nylon-hex-tuners) all flush right behind the end-plate. The pulls actuating on keys at 5 o 6 different distances, requires at least some "relay" rods that are in 5 or 6 different lengths.
- if takes a lot of room on the left which complicates pedal array and the LK cluster.
Advantages are:
- looks,
- "over-tone-control" if you so will
- when trying to keep a narrower string spacing at the "nut", on a keyless system, it's difficult to keep nylon-hex tuners in easy access for the tuning wrench to fit in between. A system actuating keys, can be set at a wider spacing.
I will post my ideas (sketches) on my ideas shortly.
Thanks!... J-D.
_________________
__________________________________________________________
Was it JFK who said: Ask Not What TAB Can Do For You - Rather Ask Yourself "What Would B.B. King Do?"
A Little Mental Health Warning:
Tablature KILLS SKILLS.
The uses of Tablature is addictive and has been linked to reduced musical fertility.
Those who produce Tablature did never use it.
I say it humorously, but I mean it. |
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J D Sauser
From:
Wellington, Florida
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Posted 15 Feb 2022 5:54 am
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| Karlis Abolins wrote: |
This thread really got my interest. My last build, which I no longer own, was designed to sound more like a regular guitar than a pedal steel. I call it a floating body steel. When I built it, I isolated the body from the frame by attaching the changer and tuner to the solid frame and then attaching the body to the changer and tuner so it "floated". I thought that by doing this, I would get more of a 6 string guitar tone and vibe. It was largely unsuccessful at that. It still sounds like a "steel" guitar.
Placing the changer on the tuner end and making a string-through bridge just might make the difference. My lap steel build doesn't do string-through because of the benders but it sounds like a regular guitar.
It might be worthwhile to visit some of Ed Packard's posts. He modified a Sierra to put the tuners on the changers which is a variation on the theme of this post. I don't recall what he did on the other end of the guitar.
I will be following this post with interest.
Karlis |
Hey Karlis.
Stunning that you bring up the sound-board separation subject this soon in this discussion.
I would suggest the Moderator moves that discussion into an own subject as I feel it IS important and not evidently limited to left-change guitars.
Thanks!... J-D.
_________________
__________________________________________________________
Was it JFK who said: Ask Not What TAB Can Do For You - Rather Ask Yourself "What Would B.B. King Do?"
A Little Mental Health Warning:
Tablature KILLS SKILLS.
The uses of Tablature is addictive and has been linked to reduced musical fertility.
Those who produce Tablature did never use it.
I say it humorously, but I mean it. |
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J D Sauser
From:
Wellington, Florida
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Posted 15 Feb 2022 5:54 am
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| Karlis Abolins wrote: |
This thread really got my interest. My last build, which I no longer own, was designed to sound more like a regular guitar than a pedal steel. I call it a floating body steel. When I built it, I isolated the body from the frame by attaching the changer and tuner to the solid frame and then attaching the body to the changer and tuner so it "floated". I thought that by doing this, I would get more of a 6 string guitar tone and vibe. It was largely unsuccessful at that. It still sounds like a "steel" guitar.
Placing the changer on the tuner end and making a string-through bridge just might make the difference. My lap steel build doesn't do string-through because of the benders but it sounds like a regular guitar.
It might be worthwhile to visit some of Ed Packard's posts. He modified a Sierra to put the tuners on the changers which is a variation on the theme of this post. I don't recall what he did on the other end of the guitar.
I will be following this post with interest.
Karlis |
Hey Karlis.
Stunning that you bring up the sound-board separation subject this soon in this discussion.
I would suggest the Moderator moves that discussion into an own subject as I feel it IS important and not evidently limited to left-change guitars.
Thanks!... J-D.
_________________
__________________________________________________________
Was it JFK who said: Ask Not What TAB Can Do For You - Rather Ask Yourself "What Would B.B. King Do?"
A Little Mental Health Warning:
Tablature KILLS SKILLS.
The uses of Tablature is addictive and has been linked to reduced musical fertility.
Those who produce Tablature did never use it.
I say it humorously, but I mean it. |
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Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
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Posted 15 Feb 2022 7:23 am
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Still referring to my decade-old drawings. No point at drawing new and more detailed ones at this stage.
No extra space needed under the keys for keyhead changer, when real keys are mounted on "sliders"…
Scissors can be lined up as close to or as far from the "endplate" as one may find practical for reaching nylon nuts, by modifying where on the equal-length "sliders" they are hooked up. |
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J D Sauser
From:
Wellington, Florida
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Posted 15 Feb 2022 6:37 pm
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| Georg Sørtun wrote: |
Still referring to my decade-old drawings. No point at drawing new and more detailed ones at this stage.
No extra space needed under the keys for keyhead changer, when real keys are mounted on "sliders"…
Scissors can be lined up as close to or as far from the "endplate" as one may find practical for reaching nylon nuts, by modifying where on the equal-length "sliders" they are hooked up. |
Thanks Georg.
I did not realize that they are on sliders which ALL reach back to the scissors (actuators).
I think there is a slight error with the lower finger as will tend to reach upwards because the actuator is not in line with the pivot point... that can be addressed,... and I am still not sure if indeed that's what's happening.
I will post some of my conceptual sketches.
I would love to hear from others if keyed or keyless preferred.
And I hope others will chip in ideas.
This is what we did in 2000 or 2001 as a prototype (I can't believe how much digital photography has evolved)...
Born as an MSA Classic LEFTY... we stopped short of cutting off the excess body from the keyhead removal, replaced the keyhead with a "clean" bridge which would hold the string with lock strings like most keyless tuners would on the opposite side, moved the pickup over and lastingly printed a "fret-board" and just laid it on there.
The left-hand-changer had changer-sized individual free rollers.
The changer fingers were replaced with our own which were controlled by the original scissors and featured a slide carriage for string tuning.
We later seen that most who were working around similar ideas came up with very similar designs.
The system worked perfectly. That MSA (we called it the ASM) sounded like little bells.
Evidently we had the original changer width at the nut, which resulted in parallel stings, which is not acceptable for proper playing.
Incorporating tuning into the changer sided seemed important, but I must say, that I would satisfied with a compact keyless tuning system immediately after the bridge... closer than it has been on the Feder PS210 and tunable with a standard pulls tuning hex wrench and WITHOUT rollers.
Here are some conceptual SKETCHES for KEYED heads with full raise & lower changing capabilities:
This one, one of my last "brain storm attacks" over 10 years ago IS invading space under the keyhead.
This last one, an earlier "etude" which I never concluded, was toying with sliding elements that included the nut (thus eliminating the need of a roller nut)... but I didn't take it further.
... J-D.
_________________
__________________________________________________________
Was it JFK who said: Ask Not What TAB Can Do For You - Rather Ask Yourself "What Would B.B. King Do?"
A Little Mental Health Warning:
Tablature KILLS SKILLS.
The uses of Tablature is addictive and has been linked to reduced musical fertility.
Those who produce Tablature did never use it.
I say it humorously, but I mean it. |
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J D Sauser
From:
Wellington, Florida
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Posted 17 Feb 2022 7:04 am Re: Floating Sound Board (Bodies separated from the Frame)
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| Karlis Abolins wrote: |
This thread really got my interest. My last build, which I no longer own, was designed to sound more like a regular guitar than a pedal steel. I call it a floating body steel. When I built it, I isolated the body from the frame by attaching the changer and tuner to the solid frame and then attaching the body to the changer and tuner so it "floated". I thought that by doing this, I would get more of a 6 string guitar tone and vibe. It was largely unsuccessful at that. It still sounds like a "steel" guitar.
Placing the changer on the tuner end and making a string-through bridge just might make the difference. My lap steel build doesn't do string-through because of the benders but it sounds like a regular guitar.
It might be worthwhile to visit some of Ed Packard's posts. He modified a Sierra to put the tuners on the changers which is a variation on the theme of this post. I don't recall what he did on the other end of the guitar.
I will be following this post with interest.
Karlis |
Thanks Karlis for bringing it up.
Since it is not forcedly related to "Left Changer" PSG but can as well apply to standard right changer PSG and I think it's a VERY important subject, I have copied your post into a new Thread. So, we can also stay focused on the "Left Changer" idea here.
Thanks!... J-D.
_________________
__________________________________________________________
Was it JFK who said: Ask Not What TAB Can Do For You - Rather Ask Yourself "What Would B.B. King Do?"
A Little Mental Health Warning:
Tablature KILLS SKILLS.
The uses of Tablature is addictive and has been linked to reduced musical fertility.
Those who produce Tablature did never use it.
I say it humorously, but I mean it. |
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J D Sauser
From:
Wellington, Florida
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Posted 16 Mar 2022 4:12 am Ed Packard's past contribution to the subject
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Yesterday I found out that we had lost Ed Packard years ago. I was researching his contributions on other subjects and found this, which I felt given his creativity, needed to be reposted here:
| ed packard wrote: |
The above shots show the keyless tuner integrated into the changer end. The changer end is on the players left in this case. There are knurled tuner knobs, but the wrench thing keeps the tweakers away.
This mod does not even require removing the changer.
It can be added just as easily to the nut end.
Notice the string retension plate. On this mod, you can remove and replace the same string. No string stretcher is needed.
Someday the PSG builders will place the changer where it belongs (on the players left). This would open the gate for a variety of alternative pickups.
[/img] |
_________________
__________________________________________________________
Was it JFK who said: Ask Not What TAB Can Do For You - Rather Ask Yourself "What Would B.B. King Do?"
A Little Mental Health Warning:
Tablature KILLS SKILLS.
The uses of Tablature is addictive and has been linked to reduced musical fertility.
Those who produce Tablature did never use it.
I say it humorously, but I mean it. |
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