| Author |
Topic: What makes guitars sound different? |
b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
|
|
|
|
Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
|
Posted 27 Jan 2022 7:39 am |
|
Truth.
It might be interesting to do an experiment from the other end of tone shaping, and have 12 different players play the same riff or song on the same guitar with the same amp settings. Or, a tutorial on how to get that Tele sound from an ES-335.
Slide playing the Air Guitar at the end kind of opened up the possibility for a sequel on steel guitars. |
|
|
|
Brooks Montgomery
From:
Idaho, USA
|
Posted 27 Jan 2022 9:15 am
|
|
That was really interesting. Makes me wonder what my counterfeit ES-335 (Ibanez) would sound like with the real classic vintage pickups. The build itself is quite immaculate.
I am happy with the great tone of both my Sho-Bud, and my Zumsteel Encore. They are different and unique, but it does make me wonder what makes them so. Unfortunately, both, although unique and tasty in tone, sound like Brooks is playing. . . .
_________________
A banjo, like a pet monkey, seems like a good idea at first. |
|
|
|
Don Downes
From:
New Hampshire, USA
|
Posted 27 Jan 2022 1:25 pm
|
|
Les Paul's Log. ca. 1941
| Quote: |
| Or, a tutorial on how to get that Tele sound from an ES-335. |
I just might try that with my 335 clone and American Tele.
_________________
Tele, Strat, Gretsch 12-string, 335, Yamaha Bass, Blues Deluxe Reissue, JC-120, Hammond BV, Yamaha MO8, DW Collector Series drums, Cubase, and more stuff |
|
|
|
Don Downes
From:
New Hampshire, USA
|
Posted 27 Jan 2022 3:09 pm
|
|
| Quote: |
| Makes me wonder what my counterfeit ES-335 (Ibanez) would sound like with the real classic vintage pickups. |
I asked myself the same question, Brooks. Having done a full pup swap on my Strat, I thought "how hard can it be?"
Then I saw this...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e4DK5RZLjRg
_________________
Tele, Strat, Gretsch 12-string, 335, Yamaha Bass, Blues Deluxe Reissue, JC-120, Hammond BV, Yamaha MO8, DW Collector Series drums, Cubase, and more stuff |
|
|
|
Brooks Montgomery
From:
Idaho, USA
|
Posted 27 Jan 2022 5:41 pm
|
|
| Don Downes wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Makes me wonder what my counterfeit ES-335 (Ibanez) would sound like with the real classic vintage pickups. |
I asked myself the same question, Brooks. Having done a full pup swap on my Strat, I thought "how hard can it be?"
Then I saw this...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e4DK5RZLjRg |
Wonder what the dif would be on leads, string bends, blues…maybe not much.
I guess I wonder if the pick ups are quite similar also, if they were put into $6500 Murphy lab ES-335 body…?
_________________
A banjo, like a pet monkey, seems like a good idea at first. |
|
|
|
Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
|
Posted 27 Jan 2022 6:17 pm
|
|
What I saw and heard in this video is that if have some Telecasters or Tele-like things with the same scale length, pickups, electronics, and so on, if you don't push the guitar hard and/or push an amp very hard, they sound pretty similar. I don't find anything surprising about that. Strummy strummy - the pickup design specifics, distance from strings, exact position and orientation relative to the scale length, and so on, determine a lot. I still heard differences, but the first-order and linear effects are the stuff he talked about.
I think a lot of this goes out the window when you are playing the guitar hard and/or driving the amp hard. The nuances and especially nonlinearities you don't notice in strummy strummy suddently pop out. At least, that's my experience - everything matters. Think about a player like Roy Buchanan - I saw him many times with different guitars, and you can bet your bippy his guitar mattered. |
|
|
|
Don Downes
From:
New Hampshire, USA
|
Posted 27 Jan 2022 7:09 pm
|
|
Here's a clip worth watching with James Burton. It's worth your time. Best sound bite in the whole interview is about Chet Atkins.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azf44klYv2c
_________________
Tele, Strat, Gretsch 12-string, 335, Yamaha Bass, Blues Deluxe Reissue, JC-120, Hammond BV, Yamaha MO8, DW Collector Series drums, Cubase, and more stuff |
|
|
|
Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
|
Posted 28 Jan 2022 8:20 am
|
|
It seems to me the premise of this experiment was not quite as broad as a title like “where does electric guitar tone come from?” might indicate. It was more about how body “tonewood” affects the ground level tone of a solid body electric. Under that narrow parameter, it largely succeeded at proving “not that much”. Body and neck wood type, shape, and finish have a lot more to do with tuning stability, overall physical balance, playability, durability, and sustain to some degree, than it does with tone.
My own unscientific opinion has always been that basic tone in a reasonably well crafted solid body electric guitar is 80-90% in the electronics - pickups, amp, speaker. The rest is the player, mostly, and other minor mechanical and physical nuance. Of course, a guitar that sounds like crap unplugged is probably not going to be helped by plugging in and turning up to 11.
A similar experiment on hollow and semi-hollowbody electrics might yield a very different conclusion, but I don’t think a DIY guy could do it very scientifically. |
|
|
|
Edward Dixon
From:
Crestview Florida
|
Posted 28 Jan 2022 8:32 am
|
|
Nobody has pointed out the thing that was obvious to me, so I'll just do it myself...
That "air" guitar is attached to wood on both ends, a lot of wood, many more lbs. heavier than a regular guitar
_________________
"Faith don't need no second opinion." |
|
|
|
Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
|
Posted 28 Jan 2022 9:16 am
|
|
| Edward Dixon wrote: |
Nobody has pointed out the thing that was obvious to me, so I'll just do it myself...
That "air" guitar is attached to wood on both ends, a lot of wood, many more lbs. heavier than a regular guitar |
This variation was discussed in the YouTube comments section, with a predictably polarized difference of opinion on what it meant. If it were possible, I’d like to see a set of strings stretched between two pillows, with all the electronics, setup, and environmental conditions exactly the same as for the workbench air guitar and compare those results.
PS I’ve been looking for that Chet Atkins interview where he says “how does it sound now?”. Anybody have a link? My suspicion is that it’s on that urban legend channel...
Last edited by Fred Treece on 28 Jan 2022 9:45 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
|
|
Don Downes
From:
New Hampshire, USA
|
Posted 28 Jan 2022 9:35 am
|
|
| Quote: |
| My own unscientific opinion has always been that basic tone in a reasonably well crafted solid body electric guitar is 80-90% in the electronics - pickups, amp, speaker. The rest is the player, mostly, and other minor mechanical and physical nuance. |
I think that sums it up nicely.
_________________
Tele, Strat, Gretsch 12-string, 335, Yamaha Bass, Blues Deluxe Reissue, JC-120, Hammond BV, Yamaha MO8, DW Collector Series drums, Cubase, and more stuff |
|
|
|
Ethan Shaw
From:
Texas, USA
|
Posted 28 Jan 2022 9:54 am
|
|
| Super interesting! |
|
|
|
Carl McLaughlin
From:
St.Stephen,New Brunswick,Can
|
Posted 28 Jan 2022 1:50 pm Tone
|
|
There is a video on You tube where the guy takes a strat styed guitar and uses a jig saw to cut pieces off the body and checking sound, sustain, tone each time he cuts off another piece. Very interesting.
_________________
Now have a SX 6 string lap in G,.A Tele plus telecaster, Larrivee acoustic.Also have a Fender resonator guitar with new Quarterman cone and spider,and an Allan tailpiece.Playing through a Fender Super Champ XD,using a little delay on the amp and a Harmonix Holy Grail Echo pedal,set on Hall turned to about 1pm.Just got a Fender Dual 6 Stringmaster style. Bought a Yamaha FGX5 Recently and love it. |
|
|
|
Don Downes
From:
New Hampshire, USA
|
Posted 28 Jan 2022 7:12 pm
|
|
Sorry, but can't resist.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5begHSoQ1s
I was on the road back in the 70s, rooming with my asthmatic guitar payer. He had his axe stolen years before, and replaced it with a tri pup gold custom Black Beauty. He NEVER EVER went anywhere without it. One night, in Mechanicsburg, PA, he left it at the club. In the middle of the night I was woken by the sound of a breathless dying man. He was sitting straight up in bed and couldn't breathe. I asked him what I could do, and he said "Nothing! I left my inhaler in my guitar case!". At 3 in the morning there wasn't anything either of could do. Come daylight, I called the manager of the club, explained the situation, and I met her at the club. She opened the door, and took me right to the office where his guitar was. I grabbed it, drove back to the hotel, and, thank the Lord, he survived. In all the years I played with him after, he never left that Black Beauty anywhere ever again.
_________________
Tele, Strat, Gretsch 12-string, 335, Yamaha Bass, Blues Deluxe Reissue, JC-120, Hammond BV, Yamaha MO8, DW Collector Series drums, Cubase, and more stuff |
|
|
|
Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
|
Posted 28 Jan 2022 7:54 pm
|
|
| Fred Treece wrote: |
Truth.
It might be interesting to do an experiment from the other end of tone shaping, and have 12 different players play the same riff... |
In the famous words of comedian Dave Gardener "You can't do anything again. Once you've done it, it's gone! You can do something similar."
Musicians sometimes have a hard time duplicating what they've just done, and they have an even harder time duplicating what other musicians do.  For all the talent Buddy Emmons had, he could never sound or play like Ralph Mooney, nor vice-versa. I do go along with Dave as far as using a jangly distorted chord for an example. That doesn't work, because adjacent strings affect each other when played together. With electrified instruments, the real subtleties only come out with single notes. However, I do disagree with using overdrive as a judgement parameter because I feel overdrive (distortion) is not a characteristic of the guitar itself, but of the amplified guitar.
Still, it was an eye-opening test.  |
|
|
|
Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
|
Posted 29 Jan 2022 9:01 am
|
|
Okay, howbout we line up Eric Clapton, Vince Gill, John Bonnamossa, Pat Metheny, and half a dozen other blokes in that caliber, and have them play Row Your Boat on the same guitar (wide open tone & volume), same amp settings, no effects. Once through just playing the single note melody, and once embellishing any way they see fit, as long as the settings stay the same. I’m pretty sure they could all do that, including Buddy and Ralph if they were still with us.
Let’s just see how much tone is in the hands. |
|
|
|
Brooks Montgomery
From:
Idaho, USA
|
Posted 29 Jan 2022 9:52 am
|
|
| Fred Treece wrote: |
Okay, howbout we line up Eric Clapton, Vince Gill, John Bonnamossa, Pat Metheny, and half a dozen other blokes in that caliber, and have them play Row Your Boat on the same guitar (wide open tone & volume), same amp settings, no effects. Once through just playing the single note melody, and once embellishing any way they see fit, as long as the settings stay the same. I’m pretty sure they could all do that, including Buddy and Ralph if they were still with us.
Let’s just see how much tone is in the hands. |
Something like that would be so cool at something like the Crossroads Guitar Festival (if they ever do it again)—just as an interesting sort of academic demonstration, and then let them grab their own axes amps etc and jam.
“Tone is in the master’s hands” part of the show.
_________________
A banjo, like a pet monkey, seems like a good idea at first. |
|
|
|
Edward Dixon
From:
Crestview Florida
|
Posted 29 Jan 2022 9:59 am
|
|
For my Money, gimme a guitar that lets me feel the vibrations of the instrument. Some woods are more preferable to me than others.
Playing multi- instruments I can say the hands are very important to tone. I can't use the same technique for mandolin that I do for guitar, bass, or banjo. Even heavy calluses make a difference in tone.
_________________
"Faith don't need no second opinion." |
|
|
|
JB Bobbitt
From:
California, USA
|
Posted 31 Jan 2022 4:59 pm
|
|
My single-string version
_________________
"Time is an enemy"
-Bob Dylan |
|
|
|
Clyde Mattocks
From:
Kinston, North Carolina, USA
|
Posted 1 Feb 2022 7:10 pm
|
|
They don't call them TONEwoods for nothing.
_________________
LeGrande II, Nash. 112, Harlow Dobro |
|
|
|
Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
|
Posted 4 Feb 2022 12:56 pm
|
|
| I think the term "tonewoods" is applicable for acoustic guitars. But I consider it fairly irrelevant when we're talking about solid body instruments...which includes pedal steels. Acoustic instruments have resonance and a sonic character, or "ring" when you tap them with your knuckle. Pedal steels do not. |
|
|
|
Clyde Mattocks
From:
Kinston, North Carolina, USA
|
Posted 5 Feb 2022 1:27 pm
|
|
Respectfully Donny, I do get your point. I only know what my own observations tell me. Because a steel guitar is a three sided chamber (five counting the endplates) I must believe there is a resonance factor that will affect what the pickup sees. Buddy, in evaluating a steel, was known to strike the strings and grab a leg to see how the vibrations transferred thru the body.
Right now I have a friend who has tried six different pickups on an old Emmons PP to try to tame the highs.
_________________
LeGrande II, Nash. 112, Harlow Dobro |
|
|
|
Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
|
Posted 6 Feb 2022 10:40 am
|
|
I agree, Clyde. A pedal steel is a lot like an upside-down drawer or box. But if you take a box or drawer and start adding things to it, like a keyhead, neck, changer, endplates, and bunch of metal parts (legs, levers, and linkage), you find that much of that resonance goes away. There is always some resonance, but other factors, like how everything goes together tend to be more important.
Spruce and cedar are used as the soundboard of some of the finest stringed instruments, but nobody uses them on pedal steels.
Go figure.  |
|
|
|
Brooks Montgomery
From:
Idaho, USA
|
Posted 6 Feb 2022 11:24 am
|
|
I’m sure this has been covered, but has anyone built an all-metal pedal steel?
And what was the result?
_________________
A banjo, like a pet monkey, seems like a good idea at first. |
|
|
|
