| Author |
Topic: Marlen tuning mechanisms |
Tim Toberer
From:
Nebraska, USA
|
Posted 23 Jan 2022 8:52 am |
|
Hi all, I'm building my own 10 string pull release steel and the copedent I want to setup will require all of, or most of the notes to be both raised and lowered. I'm not sure I can pull this off but I want to try. I found this thread about the Marlens and I think I want to try something like this. https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=202846&highlight=middle+note+pull+release
I don't like the idea of getting under the guitar to tune the middle note so would like to to build the later version of this mechanism. I am struggling to understand this even with the great description and pictures in this thread. If anyone can add to this description I would really appreciate it.
To further explain what I'm trying to do, this copedent will be based on Tom Morells E13 non pedal tuning low to hi G#-B-D-E-F# G#-B-C#-E-F#. A fully chromatic scale can be made with half step raises and lowers between the notes. I have been writing out all the common chord movements and trying to figure out the best placements for the pedals to be used in groups etc. Also charting out all the complex chords and inversions commonly used in jazz. Honestly the further I get into this I keep expecting to hit a point where I realize this just won"t work. Instead the opposite seems to be happening. This is really testing the limits of my knowledge of theory, but it seems like it could open many possibilities. I realize I have years of practice in my future if I can ever get it to work. I am really trying to setup an instrument that will sound more pianistic with quick action between notes getting away from the traditional long bends that the pedal steel is mostly known for.
Last edited by Tim Toberer on 23 Jan 2022 9:27 am; edited 2 times in total |
|
|
|
Tim Toberer
From:
Nebraska, USA
|
Posted 23 Jan 2022 8:55 am
|
|
| To add to my confusion, I watched a video of a guy setting up a Hudson pull release guitar where the E's are both raised and lowered, and it doesn't seem to have any tuning mechanism for the middle note. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gv5rMYLW5ho |
|
|
|
Jim Palenscar
From:
Oceanside, Calif, USA
|
Posted 23 Jan 2022 9:33 am
|
|
In my experience with pull releases, the lower rod needs to go in the top hole of the bellcrank(furthest from the changer axle). On the 4th string that leaves 3 other holes necessary-
1- tune open note-
2- tune E-F note and
3- tune E-F# |
|
|
|
Dick Sexton
From:
Greenville, Ohio
|
|
|
|
Tim Toberer
From:
Nebraska, USA
|
Posted 25 Jan 2022 11:08 am
|
|
| Quote: |
In my experience with pull releases, the lower rod needs to go in the top hole of the bellcrank(furthest from the changer axle). On the 4th string that leaves 3 other holes necessary-
1- tune open note-
2- tune E-F note and
3- tune E-F# |
In the tuning I want to set up, each note will only need to raised a half step and lowered a half step. A few notes would repeat and may not be necessary. I'm still working out the best setup. I'm trying to understand how this is done on a pull release with the E-F and E-D#, then tuning the middle note by way of tuning nut on the changer. This video has been helpful https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nT6yEuZ1rEc This same setup would be used on all the notes. This will require a relatively shorter throw on the changer than whole tone bends. I also will not need any half stops. I may split the G# to A somehow, to create more chordal options. I am planning 4 holes on the changer fingers to give me a few options with what you are describing. The bellcranks on the later Marlens also have a unique design. I can't make out all the details in any of the pictures. I may run out of room for all this, so the design has to be streamlined. The whole thing still has me a little baffled and will most likely require a lot of tinkering. I really need to just pick the most useful notes and simplify the whole thing to start. It seems like it it should be possible however. Basically I'm designing the steel around this tuning. |
|
|
|
Brett Lanier
From:
Madison, TN
|
Posted 25 Jan 2022 12:55 pm
|
|
There's a big difference between some of the modern pull release guitars (hudson,stage one) and the old Permanent design. The old guitars were set up to stop the final raise or lower at the changer, by hitting the body or the final lower tuning screw... Some newer pull release designs don't do that. You just turn the nylon tuner at the end of the rod until you get the amount of pull you need to reach the note. Doing it that way is like an all pull guitar. Any expanding/contracting in the length of the rod will change the pitch of the note, because it's not hitting a stop. It's also much harder to pull strings out of tune by stepping too hard on the pedals when the finger is hitting a stop at the changer end.
Since your guitar will only have half step raises and lowers, there's no good reason I can see for not going with the old design of fingers hitting the body on the raises and a big tuning screw for the lowers.
Since you're going to be raising and lowering most strings, you may want to use nylon tuners at the end of the pull rods for tuning the open note. So you hit the raise pedal, tune the the raised note with the keyhead string tuner. Then let off the raise pedal, the open string will land out of tune, bring it back into tune with the nylon. Then hit your lower pedal/lever and tune the flattened note with the endplate screw. You'll need some spring tension somewhere on the raise rod pulling the note up to the neutral position. Ed's guitar is set up really nicely with adjustable spring tension at the end of the pull rods. It's also possible to do it by just hooking a spring to the bellcrank for the raise and attaching it wherever it's convenient. I'd avoid swivel mechanisms, like you see on a lot of old permanents. |
|
|
|
richard burton
From:
Britain
|
Posted 26 Jan 2022 5:34 am
|
|
Brett, I hope you don't mind, but I've made some alterations to your instructions (emphasised in italics)
"Since your guitar will only have half step raises and lowers, there's no good reason I can see for not going with the old design of fingers hitting the body on the raises and a big tuning screw for the lowers.
Since you're going to be raising and lowering most strings, you may want to use nylon tuners at the end of the lowering rods for tuning the open note. So you hit the raise pedal, tune the the raised note with the keyhead string tuner. Then let off the raise pedal, the open string will land out of tune, bring it back into tune with the nylon on the lowering rod Then hit your lower pedal/lever and tune the flattened note with the endplate screw. You'll need some spring tension somewhere on the lowering rod pulling the note up to the neutral position. You will also have to ensure that there is enough slack in the raise rod to allow the string to lower" |
|
|
|
Tim Toberer
From:
Nebraska, USA
|
Posted 26 Jan 2022 8:49 am
|
|
| Quote: |
| There's a big difference between some of the modern pull release guitars (hudson,stage one) and the old Permanent design. |
I'm just realizing this, I've been studying lots of pictures of the underside of steels and trying to figure out exactly what's going on. Since space is a real concern I'm trying to design something as minimal as possible. I like the idea of an adjustable stop bolt for tuning the lower.
| Quote: |
| You'll need some spring tension somewhere on the lowering rod pulling the note up to the neutral position. |
Thanks for chiming in. I was worried I had things backward for a second!
| Quote: |
| You will also have to ensure that there is enough slack in the raise rod to allow the string to lower" |
In the video I posted from Miller guitar I think he describes this. The E to D# lever rods go in the holes further from the changer axle and the raise rod must allow enough clearance for the note to be lowered if I understand correctly. |
|
|
|
Brett Lanier
From:
Madison, TN
|
Posted 26 Jan 2022 5:41 pm
|
|
Thanks for catching my mistake, Richard. You're 100% right.
We have pretty much the same Marlen btw. Early permanent copy design in red. Plexiglass fretboards. |
|
|
|
