Another U12 question from noob

Ethan Emeson · From: Oregon, USA

Been playing guitar for 40 years, about to tackle pedal steel. Got a Zum S12. Top 10 strings are E9. Engage lock lever and bottom 10 strings are B6.

But, now that I've read a bit more on the topic, the idea of universal tuning sounds appealing. Specifically, Johnny Cox seems to make his copedent sound desirable (to my noob mind).

I have a reasonable mechanical aptitude. I've traced all cranks/rods to their respective nylon hex adjusters and fine tuned it. I suspect I could manage reconfiguring guitar, but I could imagine it taking a long time.

Also, I'm concerned about the lack of teaching resources for such a different and new copedent.

So, my question to the experienced folk. Would I be better off in the long run by:
1) Spending the time to change my guitar to Cox's U12 now so that my thinking and muscle memory are inline with this "unusual" setup from the beginning?

2) Learn on my guitar as is, taking advantage of the teaching resources available for standard tunings, and adapt to Cox's U12 at a later date if still desired?

TIA,
Ethan

Ian Rae · From: Redditch, England

If you're starting out it's a great opportunity. I only recently found out about the D13 tuning and I've been playing B6/E9 too long to consider changing, but you could give it a go and report back Smile

_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs

Lee Gauthier · From: Victoria, BC, Canada

I've been using a D13ish tuning for about a year now. It's basically the same as Johnny's approach but without the 2nd and 12th strings because I'm on a 10 string right now. I don't have the C6th style pedals installed yet, but I haven't run into any problems learning from any E9 material because all my pedals and levers are the same and the bar is up two frets. The only thing that was tricky to get used to was reading notes on the 2nd (C# or Major7th) string as my B string with a knee lever held in. Switching from E9 grips to D13 grips wasn't that bad for me, but I had a head start because they are the same grips as C6 lapsteel.

I have an all pull guitar and switching copedents was pretty easy, but I only had to adjust the rods for 4 strings. E9/B6 is different enough in string order from D13 you'd need to change pretty much every rod. Not all that challenging but it'll take some time.

Fred Treece · From: California, USA

D13 just seems so much more sensible than any of the "Universal" tunings I've seen. It still seems very complicated though. A lot of the learning material can be transferred from both E9 and C6. The string numbers may be different but the pedals and levers do a lot of the same things. From an E9 standpoint, for example, there are ABC equivalent pedals and E raise and lower levers - there's 90% of your E9 beginners material right there.

Get this app https://steelsidekick.com/
Set the graphic up with a new guitar and enter your copedent. It really is a big help having an interactive visual layout of where notes and chords and intervals are.

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

I really like the concept of Johnny's D13 universal tuning. I may well put it on a guitar - I have a spare 12-string that is in pieces now.

However, if the guitar plays well now, I think you'd be better off starting off with the guitar in the standard E9/B6 tuning it's in now:

1. As you point out, there are lots of teaching resources out there for E9 and C6. This is a difficult enough instrument as it is, without starting from scratch with a non-standard tuning. Once you have the basics down, I think it is not that hard to move to a different tuning if you want to try it.

2. The sooner you start, the sooner you can get up to speed. The learning curve is not that short, and I don't really think it matters much what basic 9th or 6th intervals type of tuning(s) you start with - the basic techniques are the same. Until you get these basics down, nothing else matters.

3. Without any knowledge about or experience with pedal steel mechanics, you stand a good chance of messing up an already good setup. I agree that it's not rocket science, but there are quite a few subtleties in getting a guitar to play really well.

4. The 12-string universal tuning is extremely 'sensible' and well thought out. It has everything that a standard E9 setup has except the 9th string D, which is easily obtained, and used, with a lever or pedal. It also has most of the standard C6 changes one half-step down. This tuning obviously isn't for everybody, but when first learning, those differences are, IMO, irrelevant.

In general, when first starting to play, I think you're far better off spending the time learning to play than spending the time working on the guitar. E9 tuning, be it standard 10-string, extended 12-string, or in the universal E9/B6 format, are probably the best places to start. Note that most any E9 format has a full or pretty full A6 8-string tuning with the A&B pedals down, and similarly for B6 with the E=>Eb lever engaged. I think there's enough to work on for several years with any of these tunings without ever noticing you need anything else.

Lee Gauthier · From: Victoria, BC, Canada

Despite voting D13 that could be a down the road thing if you want to do it and the E9/B6 plays well now. The pedals really do the same things, but on different root notes so what you'd learn theory and pedalwise will 90% carry over, and what you learn for bar and picking technique will be exactly the same.

Ethan Emeson · From: Oregon, USA

40 years of guitar has left me with the ability to pick up many new instruments and sound like an advanced novice within a few hours. I can see pedal steel is an entirely different beast. It truly feels like learning from scratch.

Should I decide to mod, what are the chances I'll be able to use all my rod lengths as-is? Do people fabricate their own? I have at least one frozen hex adjuster now - are these somewhat universal and available?

The guitar plays well as far as I can tell, so I'm siding with the idea of just learning it as-is. Thank you folks for your thoughtful advice.

Fred Treece · From: California, USA

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

Fred Treece · From: California, USA

It’s probably the wise choice, Dave.
Where’s Johnny? I wonder how he would vote...

Tom Gorr · From: Three Hills, Alberta

My experience of 20/20 hindsight:

A Uni begs to become a custom instrument - an endless experiment in finding the optimum trade-offs of it's limited real estate; evolving toward one's specific vision for their music and connection to their instrument.

But - a well-endowed modern D10 set up "very conventionally" should be the "base" to learn on.

By the time a person learns to pick and block, a few scales, licks and songs - the years pass and family, career and life are in the way of advancing one's steel skill.

I have concluded there is more to be lost by not being focussed and efficient in learning than to be gained in an early foray into novelty (however brilliant its conception and promise). Treat novelty as a happy distraction but not the focus - until perhaps year 10 or 20, or 40. A second guiar for an experimental diversion is "fun" (mostly unproductive), but not sure a highly desireable steel like a Zum is optimal in that role. But what is the right answer for such a role.. ??? An Excel?? Wink

i have an older MSA, but it can't be set up for splits - but dead easy to test basic ideas and lots of parts available.

Newbie steel players are privileged to live in the age of Zoom lessons etc, and that needs used for all its worth if you have the time to be mentored.

Richard Alderson · From: Illinois, USA

How about a picture of the Zum !? It won't help answer the question, but we can admire your guitar more ! I agree with Dave, re-configuring the guitar has certain risks. It will be faster to start up with the guitar as it is. The instructional material is all written for E9th/C6th; For some people that would be confusing to transpose to D13th, even though the intervals are the same. For other people it wouldn't cause any problems because its just a two fret difference. I would mainly be worried that a good guitar that already works fine might not come out so well after being re-configured. There are a lot of adventurous steelers who like to be the first to do something. If you do start out on D13 you will be among those first guys to be starting out in D13th. But its not necessary to change to D13 in order to learn those great steel techniques, nor the signature A&B I - V chords, and other unique steel sounds I figure you'll have just about as much fun either way... What is not fun for a new player is not being able to play because something doesn't work on your guitar the way its supposed to and you can't fix it.
_________________
Derby SD-10 5x6; GFI S-10 5x5; GFI S-10 5x5; Zum D-10 8x7; Zum D-10 9x9; Fender 400; Fender Rumble 200; Nashville 400; Telonics TCA-500.

Ian Rae · From: Redditch, England

When I got my first instrument I just played it as it was. What matters is your hands, not your feet.

You have plenty of time while you're learning how to play neatly and in tune to form opinions about where the underneath stuff should go.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs

Pete Burak · From: Portland, OR USA

I would not change it at all, for now.
If you do decide to change it, we have a certified Zum Service Tech in Ridgefield WA if you want it done right, Lynn Stafford at Steel Guitars West: https://steelguitarwest.com/

I am a long time Universal player in the Portland, Oregon area, if you want some pointers and insights.
Shoot me a PM if interested.
What part of the state are you in?
Pete

Ethan Emeson · From: Oregon, USA

The signal to noise ratio is far higher here than most places. Been learning my guitar as is - thank you for the great advice.

Ethan Emeson · From: Oregon, USA

Richard Alderson · From: Illinois, USA

You done good !! Very desirable and RELIABLE well built guitar, very clean underneath. Congratulations, lots of folks would like to have that one !
_________________
Derby SD-10 5x6; GFI S-10 5x5; GFI S-10 5x5; Zum D-10 8x7; Zum D-10 9x9; Fender 400; Fender Rumble 200; Nashville 400; Telonics TCA-500.

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

Great looking guitar, Ethan. I have a black ZumSteel U12 pretty much like this one, but with the post-circa-1999 side-pull bellcranks, and is therefore probably a bit later issue than yours. But I have two other ZumSteels with the earlier center-pull bellcranks, and they are all really good playing and sounding steels. And yours looks really nice and clean underneath, which makes a big difference from a playability point of view.

You may decide, once you get some basic playing techniques down and learn more about how all-pull pedal steel mechanisms work, that you want to change the setup. That is a totally reasonable option if you go in with your eyes open. But IMO, that is too good a pedal steel to risk messing up by experimenting on it without real concrete knowledge about pedal steel mechanics.

Ethan Emeson · From: Oregon, USA

Richard Alderson · From: Illinois, USA

Your question about tone could potentially get a whole lot of answers! Partially I see a certain issue of bonding with your guitar. You need an instrument that motivates you and not only allows you to play your best, but inspires you. I am not vastly experienced, but I have played six different guitars, over a period of some 20 years and somehow they all sound like me !! What I do find in Zums that the other guitars don't have is a special strength in the tone above fret 12. In between frets 12 and 24 the sound is still as strong and distinct as it is on fret 2..................

Another consideration in judging the quality of a guitar is that in addition to being a musical instrument, a pedal steel is also a mechanical contraption. So the smoothness and the precision of the mechanics, the durability and toughness of the metal parts, the mechanical "ease and playability" also define and determine overall quality. How many times can you pound the pedals with your feet before something moves or breaks, how easy do the knee levers move, etc, also enter into the equation about what is a superior guitar. One reason that Zums became a popular guitar with top performers is because they were highly reliable and dependable as a machine in addition to sounding great.

I would never get rid of the Zum if I were you, but I would continue to experiment with tone while learning the basics. You could try other guitars with the same amp and in the same room. But in the long run, you have to follow your heart.
_________________
Derby SD-10 5x6; GFI S-10 5x5; GFI S-10 5x5; Zum D-10 8x7; Zum D-10 9x9; Fender 400; Fender Rumble 200; Nashville 400; Telonics TCA-500.

Ian Rae · From: Redditch, England

Don't get hung up on tone. There is a sound in your head that drew you to the instrument in the first place.

Learn with a neutral amp, or plugged into your hifi. By all means use a little delay/reverb to make it intetesting.

Then your hands will develop your sound. As with the piano, tone isn't just a static measurement but a product of movement.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

Ethan - a lot of your tone comes from your bar manipulation and picking fingers. I would not obsess over equipment yet - focus on playing basics - bar control, finger picking, blocking (muting), moving up and down the neck smoothly and in-tune, basic A&B pedal moves, and so on. Equipment matters, but is not the only thing. You just need a clean, full-range sound from the amp and whatever effects you're using. Reverb and delay are nice, but it can be useful to practice with no effects too. You really hear what you're doing that way.

Peavey Bandits can work for pedal steel, I used one for rehearsals for a while, until it disappeared from the rehearsal space. Mine was a mid-80s Bandit 65 - I liked the Scorpion speaker for guitar, but not for steel, so I replaced it with an Eminence similar to the Blue Marvel that comes stock in the Nashville 112, much better for steel. Your 90s (green strip, red stripe?) w/ Sheffield speaker is a bit different beast. I expect if you keep it real clean (Master/Post Volume up, Pre Gain to set volume, clean channel) and keep the bass setting up and adjust midrange and treble to taste you can probably get a decent steel tone even with the Sheffield (intended to give a 'British' amp sound), provided you don't crank it. But if you're looking for a more 'vintage' tone, you might prefer your Super Reverb - I think these are totally under-rated for pedal steel. And of course, none of these are exactly "pedal steel amps". But I think they should be OK to practice with.

BTW - I think ZumSteel bodies are constructed of maple. I have assumed that the grainy texture is something applied to the wood. To my ears, ZumSteels are among the finest sounding pedal steels ever made. Mine all have great clarity and give me everything I want tonally.

I have owned quite a number of pedal steels of various brands, trying to figure out what I wanted. If you're talking about an old Sho Bud with wooden necks, that is a somewhat different sound. The ZumSteel has, to my ears, more like an Emmons push-pull tone, but the Zum has its own character. I actually prefer it to the push-pulls I've owned (I know, I know - heresy to some). But the Sho Bud sound is also great - very distinct but it is different. Especially the earlier guitars. I've owned a few, they are their own bag.

Ethan Emeson · From: Oregon, USA

Thanks for the great advice again. Yes, I should just focus on learning to play for a good while. And yes, after watching some more videos I do believe the sound I was talking about is well embodied by Sho-bud. And yes, this Zumsteel is a fine piece of musical machinery and feel lucky to have it.

Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

I was interested in the post about the Zum's tone. My advice would be to persevere with it and hold on to the guitar. They're highly sought after with good reason.

I speak from bitter experience! I bought a brand new Zum D-10 in 2002 and Bruce followed my every request. When it arrived it was a work of art!

I never bonded with that guitar and foolishly, perhaps, I constantly searched for the sound I was accustomed to getting from my Emmons LeGrande (still my primary guitar to this day). After too short a time, I offered the Zum for sale. It was snapped up, of course, as Bruce's waiting-list was long and here was a brand-new all-black D-10. How I wish now that I'd been more patient! I've come to appreciate the build-quality and playability of the Zum and I always have half an eye open looking for the right one to come up for sale.

Keep the Zum!
_________________
Roger Rettig - Emmons D10s, Quilter TT-12, B-bender Teles and old Martins.
----------------------------------

Tom Gorr · From: Three Hills, Alberta

I'm pretty sure Bobby Turner's work is with a Zum. His tone has its signature thing going on and a very fine example of what a Zum can sound like. I thlnk Jernigan plays (played?) a Zum also, might want to compare those two examples to get a basic model tone established, and start tweaking in the direction you like best by understanding their signal chan.

If you want to tweak more to your liking, brass roller nuts, string brand and metallurgy, amp, speaker are your main tools to experiment with.

That pickup is wound to a similar resistance as my Emmons P/P U12. Magnets and wire lineal resistance makes a dif so hard to know but my guess is it was an attempt to make it sound like a P/P U12, and is a long way from a Sho Bud but you can get closer.

My Fessy D10 is a bit zum-like in its design but it gets at least halfway to bud in tone and it sounds great. Very happy with it - and I am more inclined toward wood neck sho buds also.

Forum Index > Pedal Steel		Next oldest topic :: Next newest topic