| Author |
Topic: Dominant 7th Tunings: anybody still using them? |
Sebastian Müller
From:
Berlin / Germany
|
Posted 14 Jul 2021 2:59 am |
|
| Dan Koncelik wrote: |
| Quote: |
Joe A. Roberts wrote:
Allan, if you are back to a 7 string open G, perhaps you could throw a reentrant F string on string 7 (or 6) and try the Kealoaha tab pages above.
I am very curious about them but I don't have anything strung up close enough to try the tuning without drastic restringing Crying or Very sad
Well I did try it again. fGBDGBD. Though I once liked the tuning, it didn’t do anything for me today. |
I might as well use this opportunity to come out as an aspiring 're-entrant 7-string man of this century': (L-H) f#, A, C#, E, A, C#, E. 
Inspired by this thread I might just sharpen my f# to g—a 6 up to a 7. That Kealoha book looks very interesting! I'd like to try some of the endings to see if they'd translate to 7-string re-entrant…
 Continuing: One of my old Roy Smeck songbooks from 1954 has a double staff with two 7 tunings, the 'old E7' (B D E G# B E) mentioned by David Brown above and, of course, the Roy Smeck preferred A7 tuning (g C# E A C# E):
So even as late as 1954 it seems that there were thought to have been enough people playing these old tunings to publish a songbook written for them… |
I think that is a great idea, I am using this kind of re-entrant tuning myself on my Clinesmith 8 string. Good thing is that you don't have to relearn a tuning, you only add strings on the bottom and keep the upper 6 strings unchanged, love that concept.
_________________
https://hawaiian-steel-guitar.com |
|
|
|
Joe A. Roberts
From:
Seoul, South Korea
|
Posted 14 Jul 2021 7:33 am
|
|
| Sebastian Müller wrote: |
I think that is a great idea, I am using this kind of re-entrant tuning myself on my Clinesmith 8 string. Good thing is that you don't have to relearn a tuning, you only add strings on the bottom and keep the upper 6 strings unchanged, love that concept. |
I recently happened upon this excerpt from Basil King's steel guitar column in the April 1950 B.M.G magazine:
With 8 strings, there is the luxury of having the full high-bass tuning and two re-entrant G strings of two different octaves on the two lowermost strings for more inversions!
The infamous Speedy West F#13th tuning E4 C#4 G#3 E3 A#2 F#2 (D#4) (F#4) is also reached by adding strings onto an existing tuning, as used by Clinesmith himself:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-cEXlDZqEE |
|
|
|
Dan Koncelik
From:
New Jersey, USA
|
Posted 15 Jul 2021 5:22 pm
|
|
Inspired by its mention in this very thread, I ordered a copy of 'Kealoha's Modern Harmony Method for Hawaiian Steel Guitar' (1935) and it arrived all the way from Australia a few days ago!
As stated, the book is written for a 6-string re-entrant A7 tuning (g C# E A C# E). As a newcomer to lapsteel, I was looking for ideas for how to integrate the re-entrant string into my thinking/playing/hearing, etc. I am not disappointed!
Here are two different brief excerpts from the book which illustrate creative, exciting and useful ways of utilizing the re-entrant g string (the dom 7th interval). I really like the way this string fills out the harmony, for example, on these scales in the key of C:
The more advanced players might enjoy something like this:
I like the way the re-entrant string changes voice in this arrangement (can't play it yet, but can understand and analyze it)….from providing the melody to supplying harmony and back. It will take years of practice and study to internalize and to understand this voice leading fluently. But, at least examples like the above mentioned (there are many more in this book) lay out a map locating the potential treasures available to those who want to explore this tuning.
Happy Exploring  |
|
|
|
Bob Watson
From:
Champaign, Illinois, U.S.
|
Posted 15 Jul 2021 11:02 pm
|
|
| I am curious as to what the most popular E7 tunings were, both 6 string and 8 string, for the Sacred Steel players. A lot of players will say that they are playing in E7 when asked, but they don't spell out the specific tuning they are using, which leaves a lot of possibilities on the table. If any of you know the answer to this question, please spell out the tunings from low to hi. Thanks in advance. |
|
|
|
b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
|
Posted 16 Jul 2021 7:55 am
|
|
| Bob Watson wrote: |
| I am curious as to what the most popular E7 tunings were, both 6 string and 8 string, for the Sacred Steel players. A lot of players will say that they are playing in E7 when asked, but they don't spell out the specific tuning they are using, which leaves a lot of possibilities on the table. If any of you know the answer to this question, please spell out the tunings from low to hi. Thanks in advance. |
These are the ones I posted in 2001, but I don't remember the what research produced them. It may have just been my imagination.
| Tab: |
1 E E 1 E E
2 B D 2 B D
3 G# B 3 G# B
4 E G# 4 E G#
5 D E 5 D E
6 B B 6 B D
7 G# B
8 E E |
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
|
|
|
Allan Revich
From:
Victoria, BC
|
Posted 16 Jul 2021 9:00 am
|
|
| b0b wrote: |
| Bob Watson wrote: |
| I am curious as to what the most popular E7 tunings were, both 6 string and 8 string, for the Sacred Steel players. A lot of players will say that they are playing in E7 when asked, but they don't spell out the specific tuning they are using, which leaves a lot of possibilities on the table. If any of you know the answer to this question, please spell out the tunings from low to hi. Thanks in advance. |
These are the ones I posted in 2001, but I don't remember the what research produced them. It may have just been my imagination.
| Tab: |
1 E E 1 E E
2 B D 2 B D
3 G# B 3 G# B
4 E G# 4 E G#
5 D E 5 D E
6 B B 6 B D
7 G# B
8 E E |
|
I’ve seen this E7 suggested before. I think it is/was the most common?
E
B
G#
E
D
E
I prefer this one with the B on string 5 and the D on string 2, but I don’t think that it’s very common.
Brad also has this on his page:
| Quote: |
"Sacred Steel"
*Here's a common string arrangement of the "Sacred Steel" tuning. Bud Tutmarc's tuning is similar. There's a really weird history behind this tuning.
E
C#
B
G#
E
E (Low)
*String 6 is an octave below string 5. |
(References: See John Ely https://www.hawaiiansteel.com/tunings/master.php and Brad’s page at https://steelc6th.com/tunings.htm)
_________________
Current Tunings:
6 String | G – D G D G B D
7 String | G9 – D G B D F A D
https://papadafoe.com/lap-steel-tuning-database |
|
|
|
Bob Watson
From:
Champaign, Illinois, U.S.
|
Posted 16 Jul 2021 1:16 pm
|
|
| Bob, Allan, thanks for responding to my question. I have an 8 string that I have tuned to G6 (E,G,B,D,E,G,B,D) right now and it seems that I could just retune it to the 1st 8 string E7 you guys posted, (E,G#,B,D,E,G#,B,E), I think I'll give it a try. I have already been tuning the 7th string to a G# sometimes. I have been considering trying a re-entrant tuning using a Dobro G tuning on the top 6 and then a higher pitched f on string 7 and a low E on string 8. I figure that gives me a b7 and more options for minor chords. Perhaps I'll have to switch around strings 7 and 8 if the first idea doesn't work for me. I like playing Blues with a Dobro tuning more than I do using a G6 tuning, having string 4 separate the two triads seems to get in the way for me. |
|
|
|
Allan Revich
From:
Victoria, BC
|
Posted 16 Jul 2021 1:25 pm
|
|
| Bob Watson wrote: |
Bob, Allan, thanks for responding to my question...
I have been considering trying a re-entrant tuning using a Dobro G tuning on the top 6 and then a higher pitched f on string 7 and a low E on string 8… |
You might experience some buzzing issues with the f string sitting below the low E and low G. I’d try it as f E G B D G B D instead. The e could be lower than the G, or also reentrant, a semitone under the f.
_________________
Current Tunings:
6 String | G – D G D G B D
7 String | G9 – D G B D F A D
https://papadafoe.com/lap-steel-tuning-database
Last edited by Allan Revich on 16 Jul 2021 1:36 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
|
|
Bob Watson
From:
Champaign, Illinois, U.S.
|
Posted 16 Jul 2021 1:35 pm
|
|
| That's a good idea Allan, I didn't think of the possible string buzz. I'm not sure I'll like it, but like I said earlier, for some reason I like the Dobro tuning for playing Blues more than a 6th tuning, which is great for everything else. I have a Stringmaster Deluxe that I keep envisioning using it for nothing but Blues. I have heard that some of the Sacred Steel players would just string their 8 string steels using 6 strings in the middle, but for some reason that seems odd to me. We have a good Blues community where I live and there are a couple of jam sessions every month. There's always a ton of guitar players there so I keep thinking that it would be cool to bring the Stringmaster and have at it. |
|
|
|
Allan Revich
From:
Victoria, BC
|
Posted 16 Jul 2021 1:39 pm
|
|
Bob, I'm in the exact same situation. I much prefer the 7th tuning for blues, but I'm also pulled towards the 6th tunings for the easy minor 7th chords. I've got lap steels currently tuned to both, as I continue to explore.
_________________
Current Tunings:
6 String | G – D G D G B D
7 String | G9 – D G B D F A D
https://papadafoe.com/lap-steel-tuning-database |
|
|
|
Bob Watson
From:
Champaign, Illinois, U.S.
|
Posted 16 Jul 2021 1:54 pm
|
|
| Allan, I don't know if you play any C&W or Western Swing, but if you haven't heard the Gary Morse CD called Resophonic Rodeo, you should check it out. He plays a 7 string Dobro on the whole recording. The middle E doesn't seem to get in his way at all. I think there are a few tunes from it on You Tube. |
|
|
|
b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
|
|
|
|
Stefan Robertson
From:
Hertfordshire, UK
|
Posted 18 Jan 2022 3:24 pm
|
|
7ths or any other chord for that matter is a part of music. Use a tuning that gives you options. Learn that tuning and play whatever music you like.
If you want to study then join the E13 group soon as we are about to travel down the rabbit hole.
_________________
Stefan
Bill Hatcher custom 12 string Lap Steel Guitar
E13#9/F secrets: https://thelapsteelguitarist.wordpress.com
"Give it up for The Lap Steel Guitarist" |
|
|
|
Allan Revich
From:
Victoria, BC
|
Posted 18 Jan 2022 9:08 pm
|
|
| Stefan Robertson wrote: |
7ths or any other chord for that matter is a part of music. Use a tuning that gives you options. Learn that tuning and play whatever music you like.
If you want to study then join the E13 group soon as we are about to travel down the rabbit hole. |
Would one of these be a 7 string E13 that would work in the context of your group?
The 6 string E13 with a low E, E B D E G♯ C♯ E, or maybe E G♯ B D G♯ C♯ E, or McAuliffes 8-string without the F#, E G♯ D G♯ B C♯ E
Currently grooving on my low G C6 tuning, G C E G A C E, but willing to try something new. |
|
|
|
Allan Revich
From:
Victoria, BC
|
Posted 18 Jan 2022 10:08 pm
|
|
| Allan Revich wrote: |
| Stefan Robertson wrote: |
7ths or any other chord for that matter is a part of music. Use a tuning that gives you options. Learn that tuning and play whatever music you like.
If you want to study then join the E13 group soon as we are about to travel down the rabbit hole. |
Would one of these be a 7 string E13 that would work in the context of your group?
The 6 string E13 with a low E, E B D E G♯ C♯ E, or maybe E G♯ B D G♯ C♯ E, or McAuliffes 8-string without the F#, E G♯ D G♯ B C♯ E
Currently grooving on my low G C6 tuning, G C E G A C E, but willing to try something new. |
Looking at the posts on the FB E13 thread, it looks like the 7 string version would probably be,
E
C#
B
G#
F#
E
D
_________________
Current Tunings:
6 String | G – D G D G B D
7 String | G9 – D G B D F A D
https://papadafoe.com/lap-steel-tuning-database |
|
|
|
Stefan Robertson
From:
Hertfordshire, UK
|
Posted 19 Jan 2022 2:52 am
|
|
Spot on. That 7 string tuning will work.
Why? You will learn to love that low D for the b7 its essential
PRO TIP
And we will analyse soon enough the Tom Morrell F# giving you 9ths. like Rosetta and Without it you will NEVER achieve those really close intervals at speed for your voicings when playing. Not giving away too much - He lives by it as does Buddy Emmons. in Nightlife and its all over his steel guitar live and Jazz album. Once you analyse it starts to really make E13 swing. It can be used as a passing chord or as a substitute. Let me stop now but looking forward to our journey.
| Allan Revich wrote: |
| Allan Revich wrote: |
| Stefan Robertson wrote: |
7ths or any other chord for that matter is a part of music. Use a tuning that gives you options. Learn that tuning and play whatever music you like.
If you want to study then join the E13 group soon as we are about to travel down the rabbit hole. |
Would one of these be a 7 string E13 that would work in the context of your group?
The 6 string E13 with a low E, E B D E G♯ C♯ E, or maybe E G♯ B D G♯ C♯ E, or McAuliffes 8-string without the F#, E G♯ D G♯ B C♯ E
Currently grooving on my low G C6 tuning, G C E G A C E, but willing to try something new. |
Looking at the posts on the FB E13 thread, it looks like the 7 string version would probably be,
E
C#
B
G#
F#
E
D |
_________________
Stefan
Bill Hatcher custom 12 string Lap Steel Guitar
E13#9/F secrets: https://thelapsteelguitarist.wordpress.com
"Give it up for The Lap Steel Guitarist" |
|
|
|
Allan Revich
From:
Victoria, BC
|
Posted 20 Jan 2022 9:32 am
|
|
Thanks Stefan,
That E13 tuning looks super useful but it also looks like more than my remaining brain cells can effectively process.
My 7 string C6 doesn’t give me a dominant 7 chord, but it gives me a m7, a 6th, and two octave majors. And it gives me that with 6 of my 7 strings tuned to a popular common tuning, that is well suited to the two genres I play; blues & free improvisation.
I’ll see if I can stick to it for longer then I’ve managed to stay with all the other tunings that I’ve experimented with |
|
|
|
Stefan Robertson
From:
Hertfordshire, UK
|
Posted 22 Jan 2022 5:09 pm
|
|
| Allan Revich wrote: |
Thanks Stefan,
That E13 tuning looks super useful but it also looks like more than my remaining brain cells can effectively process.
My 7 string C6 doesn’t give me a dominant 7 chord, but it gives me a m7, a 6th, and two octave majors. And it gives me that with 6 of my 7 strings tuned to a popular common tuning, that is well suited to the two genres I play; blues & free improvisation.
I’ll see if I can stick to it for longer then I’ve managed to stay with all the other tunings that I’ve experimented with |
Fair enough but not sure why it seems scary as its more like C6th than you realise just with a few more extras. I'd recommend just hanging in there and it'll all make sense. Your choice.
_________________
Stefan
Bill Hatcher custom 12 string Lap Steel Guitar
E13#9/F secrets: https://thelapsteelguitarist.wordpress.com
"Give it up for The Lap Steel Guitarist" |
|
|
|
