The Steel Guitar Forum Store 

Post new topic Help with U12 e9/b6 copedent
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Reply to topic
Author Topic:  Help with U12 e9/b6 copedent
Kerry Johnson


From:
the Bay Area, CA
Post  Posted 10 Jan 2022 10:06 pm    
Reply with quote

up

Last edited by Kerry Johnson on 13 Jan 2022 2:26 pm; edited 1 time in total
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website

Tom Gorr

 

From:
Three Hills, Alberta
Post  Posted 10 Jan 2022 11:06 pm     Re: Copedent options for EXCEL ExStar E9/B6 S-12
Reply with quote

Andrew Frost wrote:
Well, this thread couldn't be better timed, from my point of view. Coming from 10 string set ups, I've been thinking a great deal recently about the positioning of LKR on U12 copedants, and, whether it makes more sense to simply not have one, ala Newman's set up. Assuming you lower Es on the right somewhere, I'd think not having any LKR would be the most ergonomically uninhibiting.
I'm primarily familiar with Emmons levers. That said, I can't imagine how having any kind of LKR on a Uni would not get in the way. Unless you get your leg on the other side of it to play B6 stuff, or if perhaps it was located a little further to the right and maybe closer to the front of the guitar- more like a single lever centre cluster, if that makes sense. This realm is academic to me at best, so I'm keen to learn more about what works for you all who do in fact have a LKR on a uni set up.

Quote:
Mr. Newman's vertical knee lever was 12" or more long and ran across all the pedals till he could use it with any pedal in combination. It was actually located near the RKL.

This is another thing I've been wondering about. Thankyou!
Seems only sensible to have that Vertical lever run a good length across the pedals, especially if its doing B to Bb...


Pedal access is an issue. My MSA S12U seems to have the left knee cluster a bit more centered than say an Emmons S12U.

Newman solved pedal access by eliminating LKR as rightly pointed out.

I (and many others) solved it by reducing the pedalboard (eg. To 5), and putting changes common to both E9 and B6 on levers.

Having now some experience on a fully loaded D10, I so much like playing P7 and P8 with my right foot, I don't think P7/P8 count as having an access problem if you are prepared to play two-footed for B6.

However:

David Wright solved the issue best imo - putting a second vertical lever on the left cluster and opening up a bit more space between LKL and LKR which should be enough to get access to the regular 1-8 pedals using only the left leg. And not only did DW not give up a lever - but he ADDED an extra one!

Like this: |~~|


So that is clearly a better direction than Newmann, imo.

I've been meaning to convert my S12Us to a second vert and wider spacing and rejigging my Uni copeds accordingly. Have had the parts for a few years now - but the D10s have been getting my attention. It is pretty hard to give up a fully loaded D10 for a Uni.


Last edited by Tom Gorr on 11 Jan 2022 6:54 am; edited 6 times in total
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail

Kerry Johnson


From:
the Bay Area, CA
Post  Posted 10 Jan 2022 11:18 pm    
Reply with quote

regarding:
the location of EXCEL's Locking-Mechanism...

Does it require that the "E-to-Eb Knee-Lever” be located ONLY on RKR ?
.


Last edited by Kerry Johnson on 13 Jan 2022 8:26 pm; edited 1 time in total
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website

Ian Rae


From:
Redditch, England
Post  Posted 11 Jan 2022 12:59 am    
Reply with quote

Kerry, my Excel is the previous (2017) model. The locking mechanism is quite separate and has its own pull rods, so is independent of lever position. I doubt if that philosophy has changed.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website

Tom Gorr

 

From:
Three Hills, Alberta
Post  Posted 11 Jan 2022 6:37 am     Re: Copedent options for EXCEL ExStar E9/B6 S-12
Reply with quote

Kerry Johnson wrote:
This question is for EXCEL owners.

Since the original Post here is referring only to the EXCEL ExStar S-12 Universal model,

and regarding:
the location of EXCEL's Locking-Mechanism...

Does this require that the "E-to-Eb Knee-Lever” has to be located RKR ?

or can that Knee-Lever alternatively be located RKL ?
with the EXCEL's Locking-Mechanism ?
.


Oops meant to quote Andrew Frost's comment just above yours. I'll edit my post.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail

Pete Burak

 

From:
Portland, OR USA
Post  Posted 11 Jan 2022 10:04 am     Re: Copedent options for EXCEL ExStar E9/B6 S-12
Reply with quote

Kerry Johnson wrote:
This question is for EXCEL owners.

Since the original Post here is referring only to the EXCEL ExStar S-12 Universal model,

and regarding:
the location of EXCEL's Locking-Mechanism...

Does this require that the "E-to-Eb Knee-Lever” has to be located RKR ?

or can that Knee-Lever alternatively be located RKL ?
with the EXCEL's Locking-Mechanism ?
.

The Excel Locking-Mechanism is independant of the E-Eb Lower lever. The Lock-Lever can be on the right or left side of the deck. It looks like a little gear-shift that comes out out of the deck. See the Excel website for several examples.
Here is my Excel. In this pic I am locked into B6 Mode.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail

Alan Struthers

 

From:
New Jersey, USA
Post  Posted 11 Jan 2022 5:05 pm    
Reply with quote

Thanks again for all of your comments and thoughts. What I'm thinking now is mostly based on Jeff Newman's with a Franklin pedal in the first pedal slot since I have 8 pedal positions.

Is there a template on this Forum where I can fill in this copedent? I'd like to show it to you. I've tried to use an Excel spreadsheet and some photos in unacceptable formats, but I can't make it work.

Thanks!
_________________
Just learning . . .
GFI Student Model, Peavy Nashville 112, Fender Princeton, Gibson RB-3, Gold Tone dobro, Martin D-28, and other stuff
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail

b0b


From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
Post  Posted 11 Jan 2022 6:07 pm    
Reply with quote

Alan Struthers wrote:
Is there a template on this Forum where I can fill in this copedent? I'd like to show it to you. I've tried to use an Excel spreadsheet and some photos in unacceptable formats, but I can't make it work.

I use screen capture to make an image file, usually (.jpg or .png). The method varies according to computer type and operating system. There are ways to do a screen capture in Windows and in Mac OS. You can also do it in plain text using the Forum's BBCode function for tab, but that's a lot harder for a complex copedent.
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website

Pete Burak

 

From:
Portland, OR USA
Post  Posted 11 Jan 2022 6:19 pm    
Reply with quote

I like my Excel, but one of my frustrations was that they don't have an order form to prevent any confusion between my order and other orders.
Make sure you spell out the Scale Length you want, the Splits you want, and what side you want the lever-lock on.
Some other brands have blank copedant charts on their websites that you could print out, fill out, and take a photo of.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail

Ian Rae


From:
Redditch, England
Post  Posted 12 Jan 2022 1:18 am    
Reply with quote

The copedent I posted in an earlier reply is a screenshot of an Excel spreadsheet.



I e-mailed my personal version of it to Japan and there was no confusion.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website

Alan Struthers

 

From:
New Jersey, USA
Post  Posted 12 Jan 2022 7:28 am    
Reply with quote

Pete Burak said: I like my Excel, but one of my frustrations was that they don't have an order form to prevent any confusion between my order and other orders.

Agreed, agreed, agreed. Mitsuo and I have spent time on several wasted emails due to this issue.
_________________
Just learning . . .
GFI Student Model, Peavy Nashville 112, Fender Princeton, Gibson RB-3, Gold Tone dobro, Martin D-28, and other stuff
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail

Pete Burak

 

From:
Portland, OR USA
Post  Posted 12 Jan 2022 8:58 am    
Reply with quote

Alan Struthers wrote:
Pete Burak said: I like my Excel, but one of my frustrations was that they don't have an order form to prevent any confusion between my order and other orders.

Agreed, agreed, agreed. Mitsuo and I have spent time on several wasted emails due to this issue.


I sent you a Personal Message, Alan.
Give a ring if you care to discuss.
Pete Smile
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail

Kerry Johnson


From:
the Bay Area, CA
Post  Posted 13 Jan 2022 2:29 pm     RE: the Excel Locking mechanism
Reply with quote

Video

https://www.facebook.com/fuzzypsg/videos/1362270877208155


Last edited by Kerry Johnson on 13 Jan 2022 8:29 pm; edited 1 time in total
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website

Pete Burak

 

From:
Portland, OR USA
Post  Posted 13 Jan 2022 2:40 pm     Re: Excel Locking mechanism
Reply with quote

Kerry Johnson wrote:
Video
https://www.facebook.com/fuzzypsg/videos/1362270877208155

I ran the text at the top of the video through the Google Translater.
Here is what it says:
Change of E9 / C6 by lever:
This is a video of tuning changes using the Superb lever.
It is possible to change from E9 to C6 with the lever.
If it is a 12-string model, G-top and D-top coexist in C6, and E9 has E and B one octave lower, enabling a wide range of performances beyond the double neck.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail

Tom Gorr

 

From:
Three Hills, Alberta
Post  Posted 13 Jan 2022 4:01 pm     Re: Excel Locking mechanism
Reply with quote

Pete Burak wrote:
Kerry Johnson wrote:
Video
https://www.facebook.com/fuzzypsg/videos/1362270877208155

I ran the text at the top of the video through the Google Translater.
Here is what it says:
Change of E9 / C6 by lever:
This is a video of tuning changes using the Superb lever.
It is possible to change from E9 to C6 with the lever.
If it is a 12-string model, G-top and D-top coexist in C6, and E9 has E and B one octave lower, enabling a wide range of performances beyond the double neck.


The crossover concept is indeed very powerful, if it changes the open string tuning. Otherwise, really think Ian did a good job with the center cluster.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail

Pete Burak

 

From:
Portland, OR USA
Post  Posted 13 Jan 2022 4:16 pm     Re: Excel Locking mechanism
Reply with quote

Tom Gorr wrote:
Pete Burak wrote:
Kerry Johnson wrote:
Video
https://www.facebook.com/fuzzypsg/videos/1362270877208155

I ran the text at the top of the video through the Google Translater.
Here is what it says:
Change of E9 / C6 by lever:
This is a video of tuning changes using the Superb lever.
It is possible to change from E9 to C6 with the lever.
If it is a 12-string model, G-top and D-top coexist in C6, and E9 has E and B one octave lower, enabling a wide range of performances beyond the double neck.

The crossover concept is indeed very powerful, if it changes the open string tuning. Otherwise, really think Ian did a good job with the center cluster.

I played a Center Cluster Excel S12U 9x8 in Dallas and really liked it. In the end I ordered a non-Center cluster Excel S12U with 8x7.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail

Tom Gorr

 

From:
Three Hills, Alberta
Post  Posted 13 Jan 2022 10:26 pm     Re: Excel Locking mechanism
Reply with quote

Pete Burak wrote:

I played a Center Cluster Excel S12U 9x8 in Dallas and really liked it. In the end I ordered a non-Center cluster Excel S12U with 8x7.


Right on - would you say it was the "one big tuning" philosophy that sent you in that direction (vs. Two necks in one)?


Last edited by Tom Gorr on 14 Jan 2022 11:09 am; edited 1 time in total
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail

David Hodan


From:
Denton, Texas; USA
Post  Posted 14 Jan 2022 5:10 am     RKL is OK
Reply with quote

My U12 ExStar from Fuzzy Steel Guitars has the E-lower on RKL. What some call Sho-Bud setup. I have other guitars setup like this and I'm just used to it.

If you have the E9/C6 shift lever you sorta need to decide if you want to use that or E-Lower/B6 mode. The 6th pedals can't tune/work correctly in both modes. You can still use it in the opposite mode W/O pedals though.

Either way, congratulations, you will love playing (and transporting) your Excel.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail

b0b


From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
Post  Posted 14 Jan 2022 8:12 am    
Reply with quote

A friend of mine just used a bungee cord on his Eb lever. Brilliant!
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website

Alan Struthers

 

From:
New Jersey, USA
Post  Posted 14 Jan 2022 9:19 am    
Reply with quote

Since I'm still having trouble pasting in my copedent, here are a few more details. I'm going for the Eb/B6 arrangement (not Eb/C6).

I put the E lowers (and only the E lowers) on the RKL, but asked Mitsuo to make the change lock move the 2nd string D# to C# (along with the E lowers). On the RKR I have D notes on strings 2 and 9. The E to F raises are on the LKL, the 5th string B to Bb is on the LKV, and the LKR is similar to bOb's (string 1 goes to G#, 2 to E, and 6 to F#).

Thanks to everyone for sharing their knowledge!
_________________
Just learning . . .
GFI Student Model, Peavy Nashville 112, Fender Princeton, Gibson RB-3, Gold Tone dobro, Martin D-28, and other stuff
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail

b0b


From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
Post  Posted 14 Jan 2022 11:14 am    
Reply with quote

Alan Struthers wrote:
Since I'm still having trouble pasting in my copedent ... and the LKR is similar to bOb's (string 1 goes to G#, 2 to E, and 6 to F#).

What are you using? PM or email me and maybe we can get that upload working for you.

I've never had those 1 and 2 changes, btw. I do lower 6 on LKR with a split on the "B" pedal to get the G note.
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website

Alan Struthers

 

From:
New Jersey, USA
Post  Posted 14 Jan 2022 4:51 pm    
Reply with quote

bOb said:
I've never had those 1 and 2 changes, btw. I do lower 6 on LKR with a split on the "B" pedal to get the G note.

Bob, I copied those changes from a U12 coped you posted on 24 Jun 2009 called "For E9/B6 Universal Players Only." It was for LKR. Long ago and far away, I know.

Oh well, if it isn't useful I'll just have to change it to something else.
_________________
Just learning . . .
GFI Student Model, Peavy Nashville 112, Fender Princeton, Gibson RB-3, Gold Tone dobro, Martin D-28, and other stuff
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail

b0b


From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
Post  Posted 14 Jan 2022 5:18 pm    
Reply with quote

Laughing It's a useful lever, I've just never had it. In fact, I've never played a E9/B6 Universal. The post you mentioned is https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=161330. It was research; I was taking a survey.
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website

Alan Murphy

 

From:
N Ireland
Post  Posted 15 Jan 2022 2:03 am    
Reply with quote

My E lower is right knee left and I agree with Ian it would be better right knee right to give best pedal access playing the B6 tuning. Great topic which I must study later. Alan..
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail

Alan Struthers

 

From:
New Jersey, USA
Post  Posted 15 Jan 2022 12:25 pm    
Reply with quote

With bOb's help, I can now show my proposed copedent. As I suggested before, I am not trying to break any new ground here and largely based this on Jeff Newmans's approach. You can ignore the yellow highlights--they were there only to show some changes from a previous version.


_________________
Just learning . . .
GFI Student Model, Peavy Nashville 112, Fender Princeton, Gibson RB-3, Gold Tone dobro, Martin D-28, and other stuff
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail


All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Jump to:  
Please review our Forum Rules and Policies
Our Online Catalog
Strings, CDs, instruction, and accessories
www.SteelGuitarShopper.com
BIAB Styles
Ray Price Shuffles for Band-in-a-Box
by Jim Baron
The Steel Guitar Forum
148 S. Cloverdale Blvd.
Cloverdale, CA 95425 USA

Click Here to Send a Donation

Email SteelGuitarForum@gmail.com for technical support.