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Topic: Tips & Tricks...Recording Pedal Steel and EQing |
Casey Saulpaugh
From:
Asheville, NC
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Bob Hoffnar
From:
Austin, Tx
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Posted 20 Nov 2021 8:22 am |
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Casey,
Really nice reference article. I disagree with a bunch of your points though. For one the Dunlop bars are crap. The chrome wears off and they are not near the level of of quality of most other bars. Also your concept of EQ has some major misinformation. If you want to blend in with a track the magic is in the midrange. Your accentuated highs push up the 2000k range with is where is where twang lives and is only appropriate for a very small segment of music. For most anything other than an old form of country music that sound can be shrill, strident and cringeworthy. Plus the first thing that happens in a PA or mixing board is a high pass filter to remove the useless lows. 15†speakers do not have more inherent low end than any other speaker. They do have a dip in the mids though. Bass players and many recording steel players stopped using them decades ago. Your article does reference common knowledge it’s just that steel guitar common knowledge sorta stopped sometime in the mid 80’s. Paul Franklin pretty much changed everything when he was working with Dire Straights.
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Bob |
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Casey Saulpaugh
From:
Asheville, NC
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Posted 20 Nov 2021 3:59 pm
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Thanks Bob, appreciate it. Thanks for the feedback as well. Yea, the chrome can definitely wear off on the Dunlop bars over time...I've found them to be good to use for their price, until being able to invest in a nicer bar like BJS or some others.
I think blending the pedal steel comes down to so many variables like the style of music, how the mix and other instruments sound, how the pedal steel itself sounds (and its pickups), how the pedal steel was recorded, etc. There is definitely no set in stone rule like you mentioned regarding common knowledge stopping in the mid 80's...I think accentuating the highs is just another blending option and can certainly sound shrill if not done tastefully and in regards to the particular mix and style of music. I'll find myself slightly boosting certain highs one day, and then not at all (or even slightly cutting them) the next just because of switching guitars, pickup types, the style of music, or what the pedal steel was recorded through.
I'll often slightly accentuate certain highs of the pedal steel (if it needs it and sounds good), and slightly cut certain mids, if there is a prominent electric guitar in the mix, which is often for many songs. This can sometimes help the two work better together in the mix without stepping on each other's toes. Usually, the guitar and pedal steel share so many mid frequencies that sonically they share a lot of the same space. Because of this, another good option is to pan them to separate channels, regardless of EQ.
I totally know what you mean as far as referencing common knowledge...I think there's common knowledge that can help as a reference or starting point for recording pedal steel, and then from there being sure to adapt to the individual recording situation. Sometimes, engineers that have never recorded pedal steel, or newer players of the instrument, have some questions as to the best approach to take...and since there are different approaches (and really it all comes down to the variables of the particular recording situation), hopefully these articles can help provide some common knowledge direction and tips for honing in the pedal steel's sound, and learning more or experimenting during the recording process.
Also, if the pedal steel is beginning to sound shrill and too twangy for a particular recording or style of music, I often find that on top of keeping an eye on (or lending an ear to haha) the 2000k range, cutting 4k with a sharper Q can sometimes be a great way to bring down piercing mids and shrill sounds.
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Playpedalsteel.com - An online resource for steel guitar. Pedal Steel Guides & Digital Downloads: https://steelvibrato.com/collections/pedal-steel-instructional-ebooks |
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Bob Hoffnar
From:
Austin, Tx
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Posted 20 Nov 2021 10:10 pm
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Casey,
You gotta start someplace ! Keep up the good work.
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Bob |
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ajm
From:
Los Angeles
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Posted 21 Nov 2021 10:24 am
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Disclaimer: I did not read the article......yet.
So just off the cuff.................
- Make sure that you're not clipping/overdriving anything at some point along the recording chain.
- Get as good of a sound (basic EQ, overdrive, etc) going in as possible.
- Unless you have a specific outboard effect that you want to use, record as dry as possible. Add any effects (chorus, reverb, delay, etc.) and any special EQ'ing when mixing.
- I won't argue that a well placed mic probably sounds the best over any form of DI.
But I prefer using a DI on the amp output because it's quiet.
I'm not going to go into the specifics of connections and whatnot here. This has been discussed before several times on this forum. Do a creative search for "DI" or "direct box" or whatever first.
However, if you MUST use a mic, and you're using a DAW which has basically unlimited tracks, I'd suggest using two mics at different distances from the speaker and/or different types, etc etc etc., on separate tracks.
Then you can mix/process/etc them as you please during mixing.
I'm sure that there's more that I forgot, but if you do these few simple things it will keep you out of a lot of hot water. |
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Peter Leavenworth
From:
Madbury, New Hampshire, USA
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Posted 11 Dec 2021 9:49 pm Tips and Tricks....
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I have also not read the article yet but I've done recording sessions playing pedal steel for many years. For many players the amount and tone of their reverb/delay mix is part of their personalized sound, using it for practicing alone as well as performing and recording. What can happen is whoever is doing the final mix automatically adds the same reverb/delay settings for the overall sound without regard for what has already be added to the pedal steel tracks. How many times have we heard semi-professional recordings where the pedal steel sounds like it's off on a cloud somewhere, because the track has twice the reverb dimension. I make a point of discussing the final mix for the pedal steel with both the artist and the engineer in an effort to avoid this oversight. And that's not to say they can't add something that places the steel track in the same room with other instruments - just don't set and forget.
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2008 Zum D-10, 1996 Mullens PRP D-10, 1974 Emmons D-10, 1976 Emmons D-10, early 70s Emmons GS-10, Milkman Sideman head w/Telonics 15" speaker, 1966 Fender Super Reverb, 1970 Fender Dual Showman head, Wechter/Scheerhorn and Beard Dobros, 1962 Supro lap steels, Gibson 1939 RB-11 banjo, Gibson 1978 RB-250
banjo......and way too much more |
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mtulbert
From:
Plano, Texas 75023
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Posted 12 Dec 2021 7:32 am
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During my time in Nashville in the early 70's we NEVER added any effects while tracking. It was always done during mix down as variables can arise that would change the amount of effect on a steel or any other instrument used. If a musician needed to hear reverb while tracking it was easy to add it to the monitor mix and his headset.
Normally instruments would be recorded in mono. If reverb is added to the steel at that time the reverb would be in mono as well. I learned a great trick from one of the engineers that worked in RCA at the time.
He wanted the steel cut dry as usual. In the mix he would pan the steel slightly one way or the other and then add reverb and bring the majority of the "wet" return back to the other side of the sound stage. Sounded great IMHO. Have used it alot over the years with positive resuslts.
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Mark T
Rittenberry Laquer D10, Rittenberry Prestige SD10, Revelation Preamp,Revelation Octal Preamp,Lexicon PCM 92 Reverb, Furlong Cabinet |
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Peter Leavenworth
From:
Madbury, New Hampshire, USA
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Posted 12 Dec 2021 7:57 pm Tips and Tricks
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Point well taken Mark, I'm sure that state of the art recording in Nashville, or other urban studios, even 50 years ago, handles recording with much more sophistication than what I've referred to. But, nonetheless, I offer my caveat for those recording in home studios or those not used to recording pedal steel guitars, since I know that inadvertently adding too much reverb to PS in the final mix has not been uncommon in the past.
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2008 Zum D-10, 1996 Mullens PRP D-10, 1974 Emmons D-10, 1976 Emmons D-10, early 70s Emmons GS-10, Milkman Sideman head w/Telonics 15" speaker, 1966 Fender Super Reverb, 1970 Fender Dual Showman head, Wechter/Scheerhorn and Beard Dobros, 1962 Supro lap steels, Gibson 1939 RB-11 banjo, Gibson 1978 RB-250
banjo......and way too much more |
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Don Downes
From:
New Hampshire, USA
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Posted 12 Dec 2021 8:34 pm
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What's the difference between a good recording and a bad recording?
EARS!
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Tele, Strat, Gretsch 12-string, 335, Yamaha Bass, Blues Deluxe Reissue, JC-120, Hammond BV, Yamaha MO8, DW Collector Series drums, Cubase, and more stuff |
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David Mitchell
From:
Tyler, Texas
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Posted 17 Dec 2021 8:43 pm
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I've been both a recording steel player and recording engineer for 45 years in the finest studios with the finest musicians and singers so may I add another option to recording your steel. Engineers sometimes re-amp a track especially when the musicians are flying in out of state and may not be available for another year. Small time windows. The way you do it is while recording mic their amp as usual on one track. On another track record a direct dry signal. After the musician is on a plane going home you can even record him with a different amplifier. You just send the dry recorded signal into any guitar amp/speaker combination you desire and record that on a track. Try his steel with a Peavy amp, try it with a Milkman, try it with a Webb, try it with a Twin Reverb. Try it with different microphones. The sky is the limit but only if you got that direct dry signal from his guitar. Goodrich Volume pedals make it easy with the dual outputs. Just send a signal to your D.I so it can go to the mixer with a 600 ohm balanced line for long cable runs.
As mtulbert stated, the dry signal gives you a thousand more options at mixdown. A lone wet sound from the amp removes most all options. You are working against yourself by EQ'ing something that's already been EQ'd. It degrades the signal with each step. I prefer to record my steel guitar dry as a bone and hear it dry as a bone. I can hear the flaws better. If it sounds good dry it will sound great with sweetening. Of course working with other steel players I just make them happy however they want it. I offer suggestions and end the conservation if I detect resistance. |
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mtulbert
From:
Plano, Texas 75023
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Posted 19 Dec 2021 5:28 am
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Hi David,
Enjoyed reading your post and like some of the techniques that you have used. My problem in the Nashville days was time!!!
The master sessions were 3 hours long and we were under the gun to get three or four songs recorded. It didn't leave any time to really experiment because of the budget issues.
I was fortunate enough to spend a lot of one on one time with Hal Rugg who helped me achieve what was considered good tone in those days. Also the majority of steel players that came through used the twin reverb that we had set up for them in the steel spot.
We did the same with the drums and the bass. I had a good friend of mine Steve Shaeffer (who did a lot of sessions with Johnny Paycheck; imparticular "Take This Job and Shove It") totally tweak out a Precision Bass which many of the guys used.
Not much went direct. Of course the mind set there at the time was to use the musical creativity of the musicians on the session and capture that. It was later on after I left that the type of techniques that you used had come into play.
Happy Holidays to you and everyone
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Mark T
Rittenberry Laquer D10, Rittenberry Prestige SD10, Revelation Preamp,Revelation Octal Preamp,Lexicon PCM 92 Reverb, Furlong Cabinet |
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David Mitchell
From:
Tyler, Texas
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Posted 19 Dec 2021 9:41 am
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| mtulbert wrote: |
My problem in the Nashville days was time!!!
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Yeah that's the hazards of being a short order cook watching the clock. I engineered some albums for Tommy Allsup and those guys worked incredibly fast. On a 24 track Ampex while I was playing it back someone would be overdubbing on another track. No wasted time. Tommy tried to get me to move to Nashville and I did go up there and run around with him for two weeks. He was producing Hank Thompson at the time at Woodland and using Bob Moore, Buddy Harman and Pig Robbins which would have been cool working with all those guys but I got homesick and came back to Texas. 😥
Have a wonderful Holiday season friend! |
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mtulbert
From:
Plano, Texas 75023
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Posted 19 Dec 2021 1:07 pm
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You should have seen the demo sessions! You were allowed to keep as many songs as possible in the time session allocated; normally a three hour session. Some of the stuff was absolutely incredible as the guys normally would cut lose on them musically. 7 1/2 Mono according to union rules. We did do some multitrack demos which if they got sold and used the pickers would get paid again for master scale. It was still frenetic.
As an engineer you had one or two shots to get it correct. And we needed 2 guys there because by the time you got the correct take on the final reel, they were ready to go again!!
Good memories
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Mark T
Rittenberry Laquer D10, Rittenberry Prestige SD10, Revelation Preamp,Revelation Octal Preamp,Lexicon PCM 92 Reverb, Furlong Cabinet |
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David Mitchell
From:
Tyler, Texas
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Posted 19 Dec 2021 2:02 pm
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Absolutely! All I could think about in the 1960's & 1970's was going to Nashville and I did when I was 21. Drove a worn out car up there that had no brakes. I slowed it and stopped it using the foot operated emergency brake. I left Tyler, Tx one evening and drove 12 hours continuously only stopping for gas and the restroom. Pulled into Nashville about 7:00am in the morning. Rented a two story house with basement on Music Square West directly across the street from RCA. My front door faced theirs. Only a week that time to chicken out and come home. The house I rented cost $175.00 a month. See what it cost today. A person could have made a fortune if they would have bought a lot of that property and kept it 50 years. They said Eddy Arnold did that and was one of the richest musicians in Nashville.
Good times indeed! I had a totally different mindset back then and even today alone with my computer I still try to replicate that early Nashville sound. The musicians and engineers were so very talented. The better I get at what I do the more I understand just how great those guys were. My heros! |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 19 Dec 2021 2:16 pm
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| David Mitchell wrote: |
| I offer suggestions and end the conversation if I detect resistance. |
Wow - why can't everyone do that? 
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Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Don Downes
From:
New Hampshire, USA
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Posted 27 Dec 2021 1:13 pm
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Mr. Mitchell, your posts are awesome in every sense. I was especially taken by your take on recording dry and then passing through to an amp of choice. Genius, man. Pure genius. Never would I ever thought of that.
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Tele, Strat, Gretsch 12-string, 335, Yamaha Bass, Blues Deluxe Reissue, JC-120, Hammond BV, Yamaha MO8, DW Collector Series drums, Cubase, and more stuff |
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