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Topic: Anyone using this E13? |
Tim Toberer
From:
Nebraska, USA
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Posted 7 Dec 2021 12:45 pm |
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I want to try learning some E13. I've been playing with C6 with a III on top and A6 with a V on top (since the same strings work for both) and like them both for different reasons. I want to try an E13 and have narrowed it down to a few, but the one that most interests me is (lo to hi) B D E F# G# B C# E. This is the lower 8 of Tom Morrell's tuning with a B instead of the low E. Here is what I like... The lower 6 notes are the same as the pedal steel. The voicing are closer for single note melodies (less bar movement). Having the E on top should feel natural coming from a guitar background. I like the other E in the middle. It seems most E13 tunings omit that note (Mcauliffe ,Boggs and Vance). I briefly played with Mcauliffe E13 and I really miss that note! It seems most E13 - 8 string players overcome this however... I also really like that can add the F# and G# if I go to 10 string and have Tom's full tuning. Then if I lower the B to C# I have a great E6/9 tuning with identical scale patterns on the upper and lower 5 strings. I think this would really help learning scales and chords. Similar to F#AC#EF#AC#E or GACEGACE tuning.
What I don't like... No one seems to use this tuning!! Also I don't like that I will have to learn to avoid the F#.
The other tuning I am considering is B D E G# B C# E G#. What I like is there are lots of other players to listen to and some tab to learn from, Don Helms and Little Roy Wiggins especially. Most C6 stuff transfers over. This is also the same intervals as my present favorite tuning C13 - G Bb C E G A C E. I love this tuning for Travis picking, but struggle with single note melodies and scales.
There is also G# B D E G# B C# E I like this because I can raise the E to F# and have Vance Terrys Tuning |
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D Schubert
From:
Columbia, MO, USA
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Posted 7 Dec 2021 6:35 pm
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| I play C6 (sometimes Bb bass) on the front neck of my Stringmaster, and E13 on the back neck. One of the reasons I chose Leon's E13 was that it sounded and laid out so differently from C6. |
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Joe A. Roberts
From:
Seoul, South Korea
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Posted 7 Dec 2021 7:19 pm
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I love that E13th, particularly so because it is basically an expanded version of one of my favorite tunings, the earliest E13th tuning, from the late 30s (AKA C# Min7th) E C# G# E D B.
There is a great backwards slant on the C# G# and middle E string that you can get perfectly by skipping the B and F# strings.
As far as avoiding the F#, that string is annoying at first but once you get the sound in your ear and facility to avoid it, it becomes almost essential!
Another perk of the close intervals of this E13th tuning is a pretty harp like pentatonic strum starting on E F# G# B.
I personally went of the deep end with my E13th for those kind of close interval sounds
(hi-to-lo) E D# C# A# G# F# E (B reentrant pitched between C# and A# strings)
I really like that D# string in there for major 7ths etc. You could try a reentrant D# at the bottom if you don’t find yourself using the low B too much. |
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Tim Toberer
From:
Nebraska, USA
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Posted 9 Dec 2021 4:00 pm
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| Quote: |
| One of the reasons I chose Leon's E13 was that it sounded and laid out so differently from C6. |
It's obviously a great tuning. Listening to Leon was the thing that made me want to take the plunge!
| Quote: |
| I love that E13th, particularly so because it is basically an expanded version of one of my favorite tunings, the earliest E13th tuning, from the late 30s (AKA C# Min7th) E C# G# E D B. |
There seems to be a million variations of these too. I know Sol Hoopii uses one or more. They seem to make more sense described as E tunings, not sure why they are called C#min7?? Very confusing for beginners like me. |
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Joe A. Roberts
From:
Seoul, South Korea
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Posted 9 Dec 2021 7:24 pm
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| Tim Toberer wrote: |
There seems to be a million variations of these too. I know Sol Hoopii uses one or more. They seem to make more sense described as E tunings, not sure why they are called C#min7?? Very confusing for beginners like me. |
It is weird and they definitely should be considered E tunings. You should definitely read Guy Cundell’s thesis if you haven’t/are interested in this. One thing from it that struck me was the slow acceptance of the 6th chord in music, starting in the early 30s. Of course this is a nomenclature and sound that is ubiquitous today, but in the early 30s when E C# G# E B E first appeared, the idea of the sixth chord may not have been known to its creator.
My theory is the concept of a 6th chord was not solidified, and the name settled as C#minor. An anecdotal piece of evidence for this that I read on the forum was from a poster who said he took lessons in the 40s from a female teacher (I forget, maybe Letritia Kandle?) who insisted on calling “E C A G E C” Amin7th and vehemently opposed the C6th nomenclature as it was “musically incorrect”!! |
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Roger Fletcher
From:
United Kingdom
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Posted 10 Dec 2021 12:30 am
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| I think this use of minor 7th rather than 6th is an academic thing. Classically trained musicians have been brought up on the diatonic chords built on the different degrees of the scale. In practice the only thing that differentiates the two chords is which note is played in the bass. |
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Tim Toberer
From:
Nebraska, USA
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Posted 10 Dec 2021 7:49 am
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| Quote: |
| You should definitely read Guy Cundell’s thesis |
Thanks for directing me to this! This is a real roadmap here. I just skimmed through a bit and found this as a result
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jm8teX_MxWE
here is another link to the instrument. The Octo-Chorda. This is also a reminder of the gross stereotypes associated with this music in the past.
https://www.vintageguitar.com/34912/the-house-of-stathopoulo/
This has to be one of if not the first 8 string steel recording.
Tuning is listed as E B D E G# B D E. Fascinating! Thank you!! |
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Tom Cooper
From:
Orlando, Fl
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Posted 15 Dec 2021 1:10 pm E13
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| I went to a single 10 E13/9 tuning yrs back and never looked back. BDEF#G#BC#EG#F#. Sort of a modified Morrell tuning. I use it in my swing/jump blues/rockabilly trio. Big bright fat sound. Sometimes miss A6 but had to choose one. Really wanted to go single neck. E13 is my favorite |
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Tim Toberer
From:
Nebraska, USA
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Posted 16 Dec 2021 8:23 am
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| Quote: |
| I went to a single 10 E13/9 tuning yrs back and never looked back. BDEF#G#BC#EG#F# |
This seems like it would cover a lot of territory. E13 seems like it really wants to be a 10 string tuning. I'm starting with 8 but I'm considering expanding lower. I play mostly solo and I really like having a 1 and a 5 in the bass for Travis picking. This might be tough on a 10 string however. 12 string anyone? I would need a long bar for that one. Could you give some insight into having the F# on top? The re- entrant thing is something I'm avoiding, but it seems like most of the top players have embraced it... I lowered the E to D on my G Bb A C E G A C E(D) and really liked it, not sure I would keep it that way though.
| Quote: |
| Sometimes miss A6 but had to choose one. |
I'm thinking the same thing, but realistically I'll have to keep a couple of other guitars around. I want to choose a main tuning for deep study. I've only bee playing 6 months or so. E13 looks great on paper! |
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Stefan Robertson
From:
Hertfordshire, UK
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Posted 16 Dec 2021 9:15 am
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You don't need a re-entrant string arrangement on top. Morrell never used one.
Also the high G# isn't necessary as it can be played elsewhere nearby as you'll discover in the group. Having the 9th on top F# is waaaay more useful.
_________________
Stefan
Bill Hatcher custom 12 string Lap Steel Guitar
E13#9/F secrets: https://thelapsteelguitarist.wordpress.com
"Give it up for The Lap Steel Guitarist" |
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Joe A. Roberts
From:
Seoul, South Korea
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Posted 16 Dec 2021 10:26 am
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Re-entrant strings are nothing to fear.
In this case to me it makes sense to have the F# on top because the uninterrupted C#, E, G# is the same as A, C, E on top of C6th. One classic use of this would be for that iconic Jerry Byrd forward slant.
For perspective if we put BDEF#G#BC#EG#F# in C low-to-high you get...
G Bb C D E G A C E (D)
The G# on top gives you the nearly same relationships as C6th just pitched higher, and the 9th on top is not an uncommon extension of C6th tuning, even on non-pedal. |
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Tom Cooper
From:
Orlando, Fl
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Posted 16 Dec 2021 10:47 am E13
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| I tried to lose the G#, but I just missed it tons and put it back on. I want it there. As for F#, it's great for pedal steel type runs as well as in conjunction with C# string choke, finger pull for pseudo pedal steel sound. Would like to try to Morrell top strings one day, see what I am missing, but really I am set on this tuning for what I do. |
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Tim Toberer
From:
Nebraska, USA
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Posted 17 Dec 2021 7:27 am
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| Quote: |
| The G# on top gives you the nearly same relationships as C6th just pitched higher, and the 9th on top is not an uncommon extension of C6th tuning, even on non-pedal. |
This makes tons of sense. I see Billy Robinson has a 9th on top too.
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| I tried to lose the G#, but I just missed it tons and put it back on. I want it there |
In the end that's all that really matters it seems. Thats one thing that makes this instrument so interesting!
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| I use it in my swing/jump blues/rockabilly trio |
Do you have any recordings available? This sounds cool as hell. The only recordings I've found using this tuning are the few Tom Morrell recordings on YouTube. I'm in the process of tracking down the records, but nothing seems to be straightforward with this instrument. |
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Tom Cooper
From:
Orlando, Fl
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Posted 17 Dec 2021 9:16 am E13
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| Only a couple of rehearsal videos on instagram. Look up Pinto Psychs on IG and there is are a few videos. Low fi. Yet to post one with single string stuff, but the general sound is there. Mostly chord solos and some honky tonk. We just got the group together few months ago. |
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Tom Cooper
From:
Orlando, Fl
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Posted 17 Dec 2021 9:25 am E13
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On Georgia Ann u can hear the high F# stand out.
Lady Day can hear the bottom F# sound. Package Drive Up Window is my attempt at string choke/pedal sound.That one is actually on our FB page. Just realized. Not the best take on that one but u can get the idea. Trying to work on that technique still. It's not as smooth as I would like on there, but havnt had time to redo these. Was just needing to get some stuff online to get us going. |
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Tim Toberer
From:
Nebraska, USA
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Posted 18 Dec 2021 7:22 am
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| You have a great think going there Tom. I love the minor sounds on the Lady Day, so dark and eery. I think you just sold me on E13. You really get those pedal steel sounds going on Package Drive Up Window! When I realized you can get those sounds on plain steel I realized I definitely don't need a pedal steel. Thanks for sharing! I'm amazed how you pull off lead guitar and steel so seamlessly, very impressive! |
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Tom Cooper
From:
Orlando, Fl
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Posted 18 Dec 2021 9:06 am E13
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| Thanks Tim! It's a bit rough but it's mostly there, Junior Brown is master of this, I am poor man's version! Even simple parts can sound really good if they are done well. It's really tough doing lead Gtr and steel, but I just can't depend on guitar players. Basically it's like, "squirrel" and boom, they're off and I have no guitar. So I just learned to do simple leads by myself. A single 10 non pedal steel can do a lot, I do play pedal as well, for a local non denom church plus sit ins with locals in bar scene, but my heart is on the non pedal. I think Stefan can teach you a lot on the nitty gritty of E13. I am not as far in it yet, but it's a great journey, I really love it. Lots of work, years of work, to get to higher level but it's all worth it when you look up and see ppl digging the old swing sound! You can rock out on E13 too I think. Retune low F# to unison with other E and maybe some other, and hit stomp box. Low B can growl nice. Havnt tried Travis picking on it yet. Seen guys doing that on C6 and it's really cool. So glad you are enjoying steel guitar! It's an awesome journey! |
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Tom Cooper
From:
Orlando, Fl
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Posted 18 Dec 2021 9:08 am E13
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| The palm lever thing looks interesting , but I am out of money so not going there, plus I think it would mess with my picking, blocking. Just using slants and chokes for pedal sound for now. Some guys do some near stuff with those levers though. |
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Tom Cooper
From:
Orlando, Fl
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Posted 18 Dec 2021 9:36 am E13
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| One more thing, if u get a 10 string made, be careful of string spacing. I got mine with 3/8, like my old Gibson, but it's a bit wide. Would go with 11/16, I think that's what it is, or something slightly tighter. Jimmy Hudson made my steel, super guy, super quality super price. I just didn't know better and asked for 3/8. Gotten used to it,may even be an advantage and it is just a minor thing. I really wanted a 10 string non pedal. I am super happy with it. |
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Tim Toberer
From:
Nebraska, USA
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Posted 19 Dec 2021 7:27 am
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Thanks for the encouragement! Solid advice all around... I drooled at Jimmie Hudson's website for about 6 months before deciding to just start trying to build one. He used to build some amazing looking acoustic steels, which have been a huge inspiration. Now I'm playing a couple homemade steels, all acoustic. Acoustic steel is a very different animal I think. I'm just sort of inventing as I go. I'm working on an acoustic pedal steel right now using a simple pull release changer, but I think plain steel seems like a more expressive and creative instrument. I have way too many ideas and not enough time! I think a 10 string will be my next project and I want to start winding pickups soon... I settled on 3/8th string spacing just because a couple people mentioned it as good for slants, but this all seems relative. I love the wide spacing for easier fingerpicking. I'm using a 22.5 scale length.
As far as learning goes, I need to start focusing on technique and memorizing where everything is on the fretboard. Thats why I need to decide on a tuning! I have been trying to get comfortable improvising in I-IV-V changes in various keys. The cool thing about steel is it forces you to be very economical. I never used to appreciate how easy it is to play things on regular guitar. Whereas on steel It can be incredibly difficult to play even a simple phrase. Intonation is a constant battle. More like violin. String pulls are getting a little easier. I'm getting better, but I have a long ways to go. |
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Tim Toberer
From:
Nebraska, USA
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Posted 5 Feb 2022 9:49 am
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I figured I'd post an update to this thread if anyone is interested in trying this E13. I have landed on low to hi B-D-E-F#-G#-B-C#-E-F#-G#. I finally got a guitar strung up yesterday to try this out. I ended up adding the high G# rather than the low G# because that worked with the E9 pedal strings I got. Also, I started thinking about it and the high G# just made more sense.
My first impressions are amazing!! I have been playing A6 and C6 on different guitars as 8 string tunings and haven't fallen in love with either. I find string pulling much easier on the smaller gauge strings this E13. The closer voicing make finding the notes I'm hearing (purely playing by ear) so,so,so much easier. Much less bar movement. There were so many chords falling out of the slants that I was practically ?@#$! myself! I'm done with A6 and C6. These tunings seem great for Hawaiian or country but really challenging for the swingy blues and jazz I am wanting to learn. I realize many people love these tunings and they are amazing too. One needs only to listen to Jeremy Wakefield or Mike Neer to know what they are capable of. This E13 seems capable of playing any kind of music. The one thing I may miss are the lower notes. In the future I may expand to a 12 string adding a low E(F#) and G#. For now I think 10 strings is more than enough!!! |
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Christopher Hans McGinnis
From:
Indiana, USA
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Posted 6 Feb 2022 7:17 am
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| I found my thread! I’m a total novice to real lap Steel Guitar. I’ve been playing 6 string open E slide for several years in the band but no8s. I picked up a National D8 I don’t know why , but I’ve settled in on A6 for the bottom and E13 on top . Man do I have a lot to learn!! But I love the voices that I find |
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Joe A. Roberts
From:
Seoul, South Korea
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Posted 6 Feb 2022 8:44 am
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It might be worth it to try swapping the high G# and F#, - configuration which I personally find more useful. I believe I read some old discussions on the forum of others doing the same.
This way, with the third on top, the tuning is more relatable to C6th patterns and slants.
The F# would still be there when you need it of course, kind of like the re-entrant D string on pedal steel C6th, which is not too hard to get used to.
Another mod worth trying IMO would be to get rid of the middle E and put a fat low E on the bottom, or some other string, maybe a re-entrant D#!
I think the middle E is nice, but it is easy to manage without it. Also, when you also have the middle F#, I think strumming the tuning sounds less dissonant and better without the middle E. Just gotta slide back to it when need be. Or depending on the tune just retune it to E.
Another thing to consider is bar movement imparts much of the idiomatic sound of the instrument and arguably, alongside vibrato, is where one’s personality as a musician is expressed the most. I read a good post by Chris Scruggs on here saying he doesn’t like the re-entrant D on C6th (high F# on E tunings) because it feels like cheating and is feels just plain weird vs. just sliding up to the note. He can play pretty fast without it!
Or how about Sol Hoopii or Bob Pauole (check out Jim & Bob - Song of the Range) on the old A high-bass tuning. Plenty of (beautiful, and some may say unsurpassed) bar movement, phrasing, and all with no shortage of speed. |
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Tim Toberer
From:
Nebraska, USA
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Posted 7 Feb 2022 6:55 am
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| Quote: |
| I’ve settled in on A6 for the bottom and E13 on top |
Funny I thought about this too! What is your exact tuning? I know Don Helms played an E13 with A on the bottom, but I think he mainly played the top 6 strings.
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| It might be worth it to try swapping the high G# and F#, - configuration which I personally find more useful. |
Having played banjo for 25 years. (Still suck) I certainly get the logic behind this and it does sound useful. At this point of my journey I'm feeling the need to just pick something and stick with it. I think I'm set on what I found. I may reconsider if I get to a point where I cannot play the things I'm hearing in my head because of some perceived constraint in the tuning. I have played regular guitar for 30 years and this will always be my first language. I am glad I really put a lot of thought and time into finding which tuning to concentrate on. I think many beginners just start off down the C6 trail because of all the support it offers, and never give E13 or other tunings a thought. Who could blame them.
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| Another thing to consider is bar movement imparts much of the idiomatic sound of the instrument and arguably, alongside vibrato, is where one’s personality as a musician is expressed the most. |
I couldn't agree with this more! If you don't like the sound of a steel bar slidin across the strings, this ain't the instrument for you! In my brief time with this tuning, I realized I was still going down for notes that are available right under the bar. Its actually nice to have the option to play the note in a more staccato fashion or slide down and grab it in a more steely fashion!
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| because it feels like cheating |
I need to cheat in order to pass 
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| Or how about Sol Hoopii or Bob Pauole (check out Jim & Bob - Song of the Range) on the old A high-bass tuning. |
Ok so here we get to the meat of the matter. What do we want to play? Who do we admire or worship? For me, right now, its Bob Dunn. Here is this guy, born somewhere long ago with no internet or smartphone, playing some ramshackle guitar that could shock him to death at any minute, spinning off these long complex preBop sounding jazz lines in lowly high A bass tuning. WTF! It is something I will keep in mind as I'm endlessly toiling away with my new 10 string cheater machine. |
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Stefan Robertson
From:
Hertfordshire, UK
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Posted 7 Feb 2022 8:00 am
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So I added the high G# and sacrificed my low F so kept everything else the same so Tim my strings 1 - 10 are the same as yours.
But I'm not quite convinced yet.
Upon further inspection this interval gives me an octave higher of the same voicing I already have.
5 - R - 3 Interval which is also a m7 voicing with a 5th on top. Am I missing something??? Why does everyone say the 3rd on top is so useful when I can voice it in a reverse slant. I'm stumped and don't see any added benefit.
Any ideas???
Why is the 3rd on top of C6th so amazing?? What chords or uses am I missing?
_________________
Stefan
Bill Hatcher custom 12 string Lap Steel Guitar
E13#9/F secrets: https://thelapsteelguitarist.wordpress.com
"Give it up for The Lap Steel Guitarist" |
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