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Topic: Re-tuning C13 for blues/roots? |
Peter Krebs
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
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Posted 30 Nov 2021 10:35 am |
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Hey Folks,
I recently started playing with a small combo that is a bit more roots/blues, and I’m curious if there’s a way to re-tune my C13 tuned steels to something that’ll get me some appropriate noises on this material? I can kind of find some lines/chords that work, but in the end I’m fighting the Hawaiian/Swing feel a little more than I’d like. I have an ‘E’ on top and a ‘Bb’ in the bass, 7-string frypan. Would prefer to alter my current tuning as opposed to having another steel dedicated to a more appropriate “roots†tuning, if possible. Thanks! |
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Allan Revich
From:
Victoria, BC
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Posted 30 Nov 2021 10:48 am
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C13 should already be pretty good for blues. You have minor 7th chords, and dominant 7 chords there. What might be missing is more bottom end.
I have a bunch of seven string tunings on my website at https://papadafoe.com/lap-steel-tuning-database
EDIT:
12/30/2021, removed tuning no longer used
Last edited by Allan Revich on 31 Dec 2021 9:59 am; edited 3 times in total |
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Mike Neer
From:
NJ
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Posted 30 Nov 2021 11:31 am Re: Re-tuning C13 for blues/roots?
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| Peter Krebs wrote: |
Hey Folks,
I recently started playing with a small combo that is a bit more roots/blues, and I’m curious if there’s a way to re-tune my C13 tuned steels to something that’ll get me some appropriate noises on this material? I can kind of find some lines/chords that work, but in the end I’m fighting the Hawaiian/Swing feel a little more than I’d like. I have an ‘E’ on top and a ‘Bb’ in the bass, 7-string frypan. Would prefer to alter my current tuning as opposed to having another steel dedicated to a more appropriate “roots†tuning, if possible. Thanks! |
Peter, anything can be played on C13, blues/roots, etc. However, it takes a lot of right hand work to get there.
Here is a suggestion: tune the high E down to D and leave all the rest. Play around until you find the sounds you’re looking for. They are definitely there.
Eventually, you can also try lowering the G to F# and see how that works for you.
Last edited by Mike Neer on 1 Dec 2021 7:46 am; edited 1 time in total |
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D Schubert
From:
Columbia, MO, USA
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Posted 1 Dec 2021 7:43 am
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Retune the middle A to get rid of the tropical island harmonies? Maybe up to Bb ?
I play 8-string C13 with a high G, and I've gotten pretty comfortable with blues. It has been helpful to think and play E minor scales over an E major blues progression. |
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Peter Krebs
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
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Posted 1 Dec 2021 2:29 pm
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Super helpful suggestions, thank you.
I think I’ll try raising the C to C# up top and lower the Bb in the bass back to A:
Low to high: A C E G A C# E
That gives me an A major triad up top (with its b7 below it), a C maj triad in the middle (with its 6th above it) and an A min triad (with its b7) on the bottom. Thoughts? |
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Jean-Sebastien Gauthier
From:
Quebec, Canada
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Posted 1 Dec 2021 6:14 pm
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It's true that C13 is very Hawaiien and not blues. You should retuned to Am7 (with a flat second on the low 7 string) ECAGECBb
Im just kidding, in fact anything can be played with C13, it's just notes, it's what you make with them that make difference!
Last edited by Jean-Sebastien Gauthier on 1 Dec 2021 11:12 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Allan Revich
From:
Victoria, BC
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Posted 1 Dec 2021 6:34 pm
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| Jean-Sebastien Gauthier wrote: |
It's true that C13 is very Hawaiien and not blues. You should retuned to Am7 (with a flat second on the low 7 string) ECAGECAb
Im just kidding, in fact anything can be played with C13, it's just note, it's what you make with them that make difference! |
Darned Canadian humour! I’m sitting here thinking, “how is a flat 2 going to help him play bluesâ€.
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Joe A. Roberts
From:
Seoul, South Korea
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Posted 2 Dec 2021 12:59 am
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I would try, from (lo-to-hi)
Bb C E G A C E - C13th
to
B D E F# G# B E - E9th
This is similar to the old E7th tuning from the late 30s and 40s, which I think is fairly underrated; B D E G# B E, but with an added F# or 9th interval which adds more than you might expect.
The top three strings G#, B, E, are the same relative intervals as the top of open D: F#, A, D. Slides on those top three will be very bluesy, and a lot of those old (and new) slide blues guitar riffs were played on open E or D tuned armpit guitars.
I don't know if that's more strings than you planned on returning, but the gauges should work no problem. I like this tuning quite a bit, give it a shot! |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 2 Dec 2021 2:40 am
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| Another to try would be C6/A7 with E on top, just a slight permutation of what you have: from lo-hi Bb C E G A C E to A C# E G A C E. Bottom string lowered semitone, next-to-bottom string raised semitone. This mimics what the boo-wah pedal of a C6 pedal steel does on strings 2-8. You retain the basic C6 sound on strings 1-5, including the Am triad on the top 3 strings, but get A7#9 on strings 2-8 with the A root on the bottom string. And being such an easy re-tune, it's quick to go back and forth to either C6 or C13. You could also go full-on A7 by raising the #9 C to C#, but playing blues I like the #9 - a lot of bluesy stuff moving the bar around on that string from the base #9 tone. |
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Steve Knight
From:
NC
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Posted 2 Dec 2021 7:26 am
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I use something very close to what you suggested, Peter. I just reverse the C and C# notes from your latest post. I use:
Low to high: A C# E G A C E
The reason I tune the lower C to C# instead of the higher C is becuase I like having an A7 chord below my C chord instead of above it (in terms of pitch.) It sounds more natural to me to go lower (in pitch) when going from C to A7. |
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Allan Revich
From:
Victoria, BC
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Posted 2 Dec 2021 9:52 am
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| Steve Knight wrote: |
I use something very close to what you suggested, Peter. I just reverse the C and C# notes from your latest post. I use:
Low to high: A C# E G A C E
The reason I tune the lower C to C# instead of the higher C is becuase I like having an A7 chord below my C chord instead of above it (in terms of pitch.) It sounds more natural to me to go lower (in pitch) when going from C to A7. |
I would think of A C# E G A C E as Am/A7, rather than a C6 variant, even though it’s also a C6 with a C# added. However one thinks of the name, it does look like a very good way to “bluesify†the 7 string C13 tuning.
Minor 7 on top, 7ths on the bottom, 6ths through the middle, and lots of options for single note riffing.
_________________
Current Tunings:
6 String | G – D G D G B D
7 String | G9 – D G B D F A D
https://papadafoe.com/lap-steel-tuning-database |
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Steve Knight
From:
NC
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Posted 2 Dec 2021 10:02 am
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| Allan Revich wrote: |
| I would think of A C# E G A C E as Am/A7, rather than a C6 varian |
I can think of it as Am/A7 when I'm sitting at my computer; but, I have to think of it as a C tuning on the bandstand or I will get lost in a hurry! |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 2 Dec 2021 11:40 am
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| Quote: |
| I would think of A C# E G A C E as Am/A7, rather than a C6 variant |
As I wrote above, A C# E G A C E is an A7#9 all the way across if you want to look at it in terms of an A major voicing: 1 3 5 b7 1 #9 5. In terms of a C major voicing, it's a 1st inversion C6 on strings 1-5: 3 5 6 1 3. If you want to think of that in terms of Am, it's a 2nd inversion Am7: 5 b7 1 b3 5. But any full 6th chord can always be thought of as a minor 7th, but one minor third down. |
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Allan Revich
From:
Victoria, BC
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Posted 2 Dec 2021 4:20 pm
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| Dave Mudgett wrote: |
| Quote: |
| I would think of A C# E G A C E as Am/A7, rather than a C6 variant |
As I wrote above, A C# E G A C E is an A7#9 all the way across if you want to look at it in terms of an A major voicing: 1 3 5 b7 1 #9 5. In terms of a C major voicing, it's a 1st inversion C6 on strings 1-5: 3 5 6 1 3. If you want to think of that in terms of Am, it's a 2nd inversion Am7: 5 b7 1 b3 5. But any full 6th chord can always be thought of as a minor 7th, but one minor third down. |
Absolutely. Like Steve said in response to my post, what really matters to each of us as we actually play music, is how we conceptualize it in our heads. For him it’s a C based tuning because that’s what works for him. I can’t disagree. |
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Peter Krebs
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
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Posted 3 Dec 2021 9:44 am
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| Thanks for the different perspectives, guys. A good example of why this forum is such a great resource/inspiration! I messed around with this a bit more, and keep returning to my initial alteration of the C13 to an A7#9…. I think more as a chordal player than anything (being a sock rhythm player on jazz/Western swing for 25 years), and the logic of this particular tuning for common swing chord progressions (and the odd hill stomp blues) just seems to make sense to what’s left of my brain. I can get a little bit of Fred McDowell along with my Western swing, so it’ll do for now (and for tonight’s gig). Thanks again! |
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Allan Revich
From:
Victoria, BC
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Posted 30 Dec 2021 11:39 am Bluesify C13?
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Perhaps you could stay with C13, but turn it into a blues tuning by swapping the positions of the A and Bb.
From; Bb C E G A C E
To; A C E G Bb C E
Gives you a nice bluesy C7 chord, AND an Am7 chord, both of them in root position.
I've given up the dominant 7 in favour of C6 with a low G; G C E G A C E. It seems to be working for me for blues.
_________________
Current Tunings:
6 String | G – D G D G B D
7 String | G9 – D G B D F A D
https://papadafoe.com/lap-steel-tuning-database |
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