Why is this combination so stiff on my LKR?

Dan Beller-McKenna · From: Durham, New Hampshire, USA

I have been looking for the right place to add the string 1+2 raise to my E9 copeant. At the moment, I have it on a staggered (inside) LKL on my Carter D10. I'm getting pretty comfortable with it there (and with the E-F raise on the outer LKL), and I suspect I will add the same extra LKL to my Super Pro.

Ideally, though, I would like to have it on my LKR, along with the current change there: 6th string G#-F#. I tried it there on both of my steels, and on both it was way too stiff. Yesterday I had a chance to sit behind someone's Zum Encore (great guitar: sorry I had to sell mine!), who had those changes together on his RKL. Felt perfectly fine; not too stiff, well-timed, smooth motion. I immediately reconfigured my Carter, thinking I must have done something wrong when I tried it before. Nope: same too-stiff action.

What am I doing wrong here? I have those changes in the longest-lightest settings I can get. They are fine alone on the LKL, but when I move them to LKR with the 6th string drop: too stiff. I don't believe the Carter changer is inherently stiff, and I am certain the Super Pro is not. I'm puzzled.

I see several references in past threads to this combo (6: -1; 2: +.5; 1: +1) as a standard inner knee on Carters. Does anyone have a Carter with it, and could you share your rodding on that knee?

Thanks.

Mike DiAlesandro · From: Kent, Ohio

Dan,

Possibly it feels stiffer on reversing knee levers as opposed to the non-reversing levers on certain guitars?

I believe that could be an issue on some of the designed mechanisms. Just an observation I have noticed working on certain guitars.

The 1st string whole tone raise is a long pull, as some folks have even made up longer Emmons p/p bellcranks to accomodate for this.

Good question!

Fred · From: Amesbury, MA

Maybe the lower return spring on string 6 is tighter than it needs to be. You might try backing off the the tuning nuts on 1 and 2 to see how heavy 6 is by itself.

Fred

Peter Leavenworth · From: Madbury, New Hampshire, USA

Hey Dan,
Do you have a RKR? On my Zum, string 2 drops a 1/2 and whole step on RKL and both strings 1 and 2 raise both a 1/2 and a whole step on RKR; and they are the opposite of stiff.
Maybe the shorter distance to the changer of RKR makes it smoother, but it does require a flag. So for me it's the perennial issue of firming up 1/2 steps.
I saw here on the forum that there's a Swiss PS maker, Peter Schild, who has a nice (expensive) 1/2 step mechanism for that adjustment that he sells separately but I never hear back from him.
Pete
_________________
2008 Zum D-10, 1996 Mullens PRP D-10, 1974 Emmons D-10, 1976 Emmons D-10, early 70s Emmons GS-10, Milkman Sideman head w/Telonics 15" speaker, 1966 Fender Super Reverb, 1970 Fender Dual Showman head, Wechter/Scheerhorn and Beard Dobros, 1962 Supro lap steels, Gibson 1939 RB-11 banjo, Gibson 1978 RB-250
banjo......and way too much more

Dan Beller-McKenna · From: Durham, New Hampshire, USA

Hi Pete! I should come check out that change on your Zum. Owe you a visit anyway.

Thanks for the replies so far. Wouldn't be the return spring on string 6: that lower alone is my standard LKR, and it is very easy and light (without too much throw). It's only when I add the other two changes that it stiffens up.

I am intrigued by the idea that the reversing mechanism has something to do with it, although I've never heard of that before, and I do have the reversing connector set to as light a throw as possible.

I'm pretty much determined at his point to go with the staggered LKLs. I use the 6th lower too much to deal with that being uncomfortable. Just curious why it seems to work easily on other steels.

Tucker Jackson · From: Portland, Oregon, USA

Hey, Dan, do you have a split-tuning rod for the 6th string lower? I have a Carter where that rod was rubbing like crazy against the B-pedal's rod. Couldn't figure out how to get around that with the routing-angle of those rods, so I just took the split-tuning rod off and that lever suddenly became easier to use. Of course, I don't have a 2nd string raise on that lever, so yours will be stiffer than mine.

Bobby D. Jones · From: West Virginia, USA

Check the bell crank holes that the 3 pulls are in,. If you can move the pulls closer to the cross rod in the bell crank holes, It will give you a mechanical advantage for an easier pull.

Start with 1st, then 2nd then the 6th. The small strings pull further, The difference in a wound or plain 6th would or could make a difference also.

Dan Beller-McKenna · From: Durham, New Hampshire, USA

Yeah, I have the raises for 1 and 2 farthest from the changer axle and close to the cross-shaft (with one offset at that end between strings one and two to account for the string difference you mention, Bobby.)

Again, no problem with the lower on 6. I have the 1 and 2 raise back on that second LKL and the string 6 lower on RKL is back to feeling fine as it always does.

Jon Light · From: Saugerties, NY

I can't recall now if it happened once or twice -- I broke the tongue on the reversing mechanism of my 1998 Carter. John Fabian reacted as if he'd certainly seen it before as he sent me the replacement part. There did seem to be a considerable amount of force on that spot. It's too long ago but I think I remember that it was LKR and I do believe it carried the same string 6/2/1 load that you are describing. I don't know that I had enough experience then to consider the amount of muscle required 'excessive' vs....it just was what it was. I'd be a lot more aware of that factor today.

Bob Carlucci · From: Candor, New York, USA

Fred Treece · From: California, USA

Dan Beller-McKenna · From: Durham, New Hampshire, USA

This is really revealing. I never thought of the reversing mechanism itself being the culprit. I'll give the grease a try.

Bob Carlucci · From: Candor, New York, USA

Fred/Dan... What I did, was found a heavy "stringy" grease, that hung in there a long time... It gets black after a few weeks, and I would just wipe it off and put new on it.. Just needs a little fingertip full on each of those little opposing fulcrums. It was NOT a well thought out design, just too much friction, and as you said oil just doesn't do it for long.

Mine got so bad at one point, the lever just stuck in the actuated position and would not return!
Upon investigation, I found the metal so rough and ragged from the friction, each fulcrum dug into the other and caused the lever to stay "pushed in"" all the way, even the return springs, and string tension could not bring it back.
Once I put grease on it, the ragged chewed up aluminum kind of "wore in", and as long as I used grease on the reversing fulcrums it was smooth sailing thereafter, for many years until I sold that guitar... Never had an issue with it again.. Let me know if the grease trick helps. bob
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I'm over the hill and hittin'rocks on the way down!

no gear list for me.. you don't have the time......

Bruce Derr · From: Lee, New Hampshire, USA

Hey Dan, I have Bob's old guitar if you want to come over and check it out! (Hi Bob!) I have a tub of Slick 50 grease and it seems to work fine. Haven't had to regrease it in a long time, although now that this is being talked about I should probably check it and put a little on there.

Dan Beller-McKenna · From: Durham, New Hampshire, USA

Hey Bruce! I was going to ask you if that was the one you bought from Bob. Yeah. I'll give you a call.

Bob Carlucci · From: Candor, New York, USA

Dan Beller-McKenna · From: Durham, New Hampshire, USA

Bob, I can attest that Bruce sounds great on that Carter! Hearing him was the reason I kept trying Carters even though I had misgivings (mainly with some of the user-unfriendly features underneath). I finally landed one that I like a lot. It didn't have the immovable auto-stripping set screws the others suffered from, and I've made my peace with the dogbones.

Bruce Derr · From: Lee, New Hampshire, USA

Bob, the old Carter is still going strong. All guitars have their quirks but I've never had an issue with dog bones or reversers on the Carter. The Sperzel tuners aren't great, and I have a little zing on the 4th string I need to get rid of, but those are mighty small carps considering it sounds great, plays great, and stays in tune well. I have a 705 in there now, with a single coil switch. I liked how your custom Truetone sounded but there were two venues where I couldn't use it because of noisy wiring. I think I sent it back to you some years ago, remember? It was when you had that other Carter (blue) briefly, before you found that awesome little Marlen. (Btw I have a Marlen story for you - I'll email you later.) If I ever decide to sell the Carter I'll call you first!

Dan, you're welcome to borrow my little tub of grease to try. I could bring it over tonight.

Bob Carlucci · From: Candor, New York, USA

[quote="Bruce Derr"]Bob, the old Carter is still going strong. All guitars have their quirks but I've never had an issue with dog bones or reversers on the Carter. The Sperzel tuners aren't great, and I have a little zing on the 4th string I need to get rid of, but those are mighty small carps considering it sounds great, plays great, and stays in tune well. I have a 705 in there now, with a single coil switch. I liked how your custom Truetone sounded but there were two venues where I couldn't use it because of noisy wiring. I think I sent it back to you some years ago, remember? It was when you had that other Carter (blue) briefly, before you found that awesome little Marlen. (Btw I have a Marlen story for you - I'll email you later.) If I ever decide to sell the Carter I'll call you first

Thats right!.. I put it into the blue Carter, trying to catch "lightning in a bottle" and duplicate the sound/playability of your black one.. It did NOT work out.. The blue one never played or sounded like the black one, and I never bonded with it at all, and it went out he door in short order. Geez, my memory is hot.
The 705 with single coil capability is a great choice.. Thats what I use, with an on/on/on DPDT switch that gives me either coil isolated, or full humbucker .. My Marlen is a wonderful guitar, real happy with it for many years now, but I still miss that little Carter.. SO glad she's in good hands!!! bob
_________________
I'm over the hill and hittin'rocks on the way down!

no gear list for me.. you don't have the time......

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