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Topic: Williams U-12 Copedent questions |
Zach Lattin
From:
Washington, USA
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Posted 22 Oct 2021 1:30 pm |
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| Thanks for explaining that; makes sense when you think of it like a sixth tuning. All of this is making me think I need to take a big step back and think this through a little more, especially now that I realize the Williams copedent also has the e's on the right knee, not the left, so even making that change would be a big departure from the default. And maybe, like all of this stuff, it's easier when you just sit down in front of a guitar and play! |
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Dennis Detweiler
From:
Solon, Iowa, US
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Posted 22 Oct 2021 2:29 pm
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I like to hop in and out of both tunings on the fly. Sometimes playing typical E9th, then tossing in a B6th pedal or visa-versa. I like to take advantage of both tunings at the same time. I don't think I could settle on choosing between two sets of Left knees (8 knee levers)? With that much hardware, it's like having two necks? To me, it defeats the purpose.
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1976 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics 427 pickup, 1975 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics X-12 pickup, Boss 59 Fender pedal for preamp, NDR-5 Atlantic Delay & Reverb, two Quilter 201 amps, 2- 12" Eminence EPS-12C speakers, ShoBud Pedal, 1949 Epiphone D-8. Revelation preamp into a Crown XLS 1002 power amp. |
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Pete Burak
From:
Portland, OR USA
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Posted 22 Oct 2021 5:58 pm
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| I played the Jeff Newman 7×4 Universal for 18 years starting around 1982 and still consider it to be the Corvette of Universal Copedents. |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 23 Oct 2021 11:32 am
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I've been asked about the centre vertical lever on my copedent posted above. I should have pointed out that it's not all one change (although it can produce some meaningful chords). On the contrary it's two separate ones on the same lever - like for instance the LKL that lowers 6 and raises 1 - you don't expect to play both those strings at the same time.
Likewise my vertical lever is a 9th string raise when I'm on strings 6-10, and a 5th string lower when I'm on 4-8. I don't find that they conflict, and in any case I still have the traditional P8 available if I really need it.
I hope that if you were confused, you no longer are; and that if you weren't, I've done nothing to spoil it for you.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Bobby D. Jones
From:
West Virginia, USA
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Posted 24 Oct 2021 2:25 pm
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The Williams U12 copedent is Emmons' Set Up on pedals (123-ABC). Jeff Newman's U12 copedent is Day Set Up (123-CBA) and no LKR other wise they are pretty similar.
When I moved to a U12 tuning and a lighter guitar, I chose the Newman U12 tuning, I have always been a Day Set Up player, Moving the 4-8 string raise and lower from Left knee to Right knee, Took a couple days to get the changes into my neuro memory.
Choose the copedent set up you want and start steelin.. |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 24 Oct 2021 2:54 pm
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Newman could play Emmons or Day but I believe the reason he chose Day for the uni is so that the C pedal is out of the way. The A pedal can actually be useful next to the B6 pedals if you just want to raise 5 on its own.
I also use A, 5 and the verticle to give the 3-frets-up 6th chord.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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J D Sauser
From:
Wellington, Florida
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Posted 25 Oct 2021 8:31 pm
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| Zach Lattin wrote: |
Thank you Ian and J.D. for all of your posts (in this thread and all over the forum!); I will think long and hard about whether I want D's on both strings 8 and 9. Also like your thinking about putting the traditional P8 change back in its place, so moving it from P4 on the Williams copedent, but I'm open to hearing the thinking behind why it's on P4. I use that change a lot when playing basic blues on my c-6th playing and wouldn't want to screw it up.
When I ordered my first guitar I really thought about just getting a C-6th setup with pedals and no second neck and almost went through with it. Interesting to hear about someone else who plays that setup.
And yes, I plan on meeting up with Pete.
| J D Sauser wrote: |
| Ian Rae wrote: |
| Out of all J.D.'s suggestions there is only one I would take issue with:- You do need both D's, the lowered 8 and the raised 9. They have totally different characters and uses. The lowered 8 is a basic change on the B6 side, and on the E9 if you release the D with the A pedal engaged you've got the same move as lowering your original 9th string D. And if you compare the 13th or #9 chords with 5A and 6 you'll notice a big difference in the voicing. |
Ture, you "loose" some, but with a Universal setup, you'll find most somewhere else.
Now, if you are a "firm" E9th player, I agree, you will miss that D, E, F# at times.
But I'd rather have a completely different change instead. It's give and take.
On today's guitars, being half way handy, nothing is "hard wired".
Then again, I left E9th... for a loaded C6th with 5P & 7L... so, my views are all BUT standard.
... J-D. |
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Thanks!
I think that one fundamental decision to make, is HOW you will want to look at and use your Universal.
Most likely, you will base it off E9th like most. Nothing wrong with that unless you'd be one of the few who would want to put Jazz, Swing and Bebop ahead of Country and Pop.
Keep in mind, that Maurice Anderson, who is often mentioned for his Bb6->Eb9th... played also a guitar tuned E9th-B6th... and often played that (green-black) guitar at Jazz settings.
But the most important decision is, will you look at it as ONE tuning with 7 pedals and 5 levers or TWO tunings, one with 3P & 5L and another with 4P & 3L?
I would suggest that BOTH, Jeff Newman who played off E9th and Maurice who played both ways, played it seamlessly as ONE tuning where in all "modes" they had 7&5.
But MOST others I have met use the Universal a a 2-in-1neck guitar.
Once you will have that mind-set laid out for your application, use and needs, you will probably better sort our the many valid answers and suggestions here.
Now go see Pete Burak and have fun and come back to tell us 'bout it!... J-D.
_________________
__________________________________________________________
Was it JFK who said: Ask Not What TAB Can Do For You - Rather Ask Yourself "What Would B.B. King Do?"
A Little Mental Health Warning:
Tablature KILLS SKILLS.
The uses of Tablature is addictive and has been linked to reduced musical fertility.
Those who produce Tablature did never use it.
I say it humorously, but I mean it. |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 25 Oct 2021 11:24 pm
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To me it's a 2-in-1 guitar with the possibility of using changes from the "other side" now and then.
I use the B6 more than half the time without playing any jazz or swing. I find it more intuitive for any music that uses stacked and altered chords.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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J D Sauser
From:
Wellington, Florida
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Posted 25 Oct 2021 11:31 pm
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| b0b wrote: |
It looks like all of the right changes to me. I'd think carefully about the positions of the knee levers, though. Don't stray too far from what you're used to. E9/B6 pretty much requires that you lower Es on your right knee. I think that most people keep their E raises on LKL (unless their E9 pedals are CBA).
I've never understood having the C6th P8 changes on P4, but it appears to be very common among U-12 players. |
I think it was a Jeff Newman "thing". He argued at one point that "we here in Nashville" now used the "8th-pedal" next to what was the 5th pedal because "everybody here here in Nashvilles" wasn't using the old "4th pedal" (raising A-to-B) anymore and thus chose to have the pedals next to each other because they were used in chronological order (turnarounds). I think that it was meant to get the pedal a new boost in popularity after the "Hold It"-sound had become somewhat outdated.
Turned out, nobody in Nashville really had gone for it as I think the swap proved short less than ideal. First it moves the main pedals closer to the right and secondly, being able to use pedals 7 & 8th together gives the 8th pedal much more mileage and specially now that some are lowering the lower E a full tone, it creates together with the 7th pedal all them great Bill Evans Quartal Chord voicings.
Don't misunderstand my humorous quotes of Jeff's pitches as disrespectful (he used the "the boys in Nashville" analogy rather freely). He was an amazing musician, teacher and marketing mind with a marvelous sense of humor and helped to establish the Universal Tuning and proved it to be a serious and valid alternative.
... J-D.
_________________
__________________________________________________________
Was it JFK who said: Ask Not What TAB Can Do For You - Rather Ask Yourself "What Would B.B. King Do?"
A Little Mental Health Warning:
Tablature KILLS SKILLS.
The uses of Tablature is addictive and has been linked to reduced musical fertility.
Those who produce Tablature did never use it.
I say it humorously, but I mean it. |
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Zach Lattin
From:
Washington, USA
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Posted 26 Oct 2021 10:40 am
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| hi! Just by way of wrap-up, a U-12 very fortuitously showed up in the for sale section, which is coming to my house this weekend thanks to an awesome forum member! For the time-being I plan on playing it out with some basic e-9th and c-6th stuff, and later on I plan on modding it to try out some of the ideas in this thread. Right now e lower is on the right and e raise is on the left, and the copedent looks like it has everything I use on my D-10 in some fashion. Looking forward to getting it under my feet, knees, and fingers. And yes, I plan on visiting Pete just as soon as work slows down a little. Thank you everyone; you collectively are a veritable fount of wisdom and information. I can't imagine learning pedal steel before this forum. |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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