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Mitch Crane


From:
1000 Oaks, CA
Post  Posted 31 Dec 2010 2:18 pm    
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Wow...some great info in this thread ! Thanks for all the scans Michael ! I've downloaded them all for future reference.
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Jeff Spencer

 

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Queensland, Australia
Post  Posted 31 Dec 2010 3:37 pm    
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Great pics Michael. All the info matches perfectly with the 1976 colour catalogue I have.Would there be any interest in me scanning the pics out of this catalogue and posting on the forum??
Cheers
Jeff
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Mitch Crane


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1000 Oaks, CA
Post  Posted 31 Dec 2010 3:46 pm    
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Jeff, I for one, would love the scans. .. and this thread will be a wealth of "Stringmaster" info for years to come I'd think ?
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Jeff Spencer

 

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Queensland, Australia
Post  Posted 31 Dec 2010 6:53 pm    
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Front page and back page included as fender give "mating' suggestions. Some very cool pics in this booklet. I have thrown in a pic of one of their pedal steels just for fun.
Cheers
Jeff
















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Michael Lee Allen

 

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Post  Posted 1 Jan 2011 10:54 am    
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Michael Lee Allen

 

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Post  Posted 1 Jan 2011 10:57 am    
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Michael Lee Allen

 

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Post  Posted 1 Jan 2011 11:10 am    
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Michael Lee Allen

 

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Post  Posted 1 Jan 2011 11:11 am    
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Jeff Spencer

 

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Queensland, Australia
Post  Posted 1 Jan 2011 2:59 pm    
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Thanks Michael for the great info. My catalogue is dated 1976 (CBS times)I remember a pile of them on the counter of a music shop and asking the attendent if I could have one. "sure, they are free" I have been asked if I would sell it a few times since Winking .

Jeff
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Michael Lee Allen

 

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Post  Posted 1 Jan 2011 3:13 pm    
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Jeff Spencer

 

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Queensland, Australia
Post  Posted 1 Jan 2011 4:50 pm    
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Your dead right... pages split, it was a PITA. A marketing trick that failed I think. Great book though. Intersting about the colours. Were they different in actual colour or just named differently??
I dont acually own one of these but would love to!

Ta
Jeff
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Michael Lee Allen

 

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Post  Posted 1 Jan 2011 6:08 pm    
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Doug Beaumier


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Northampton, MA
Post  Posted 1 Jan 2011 7:24 pm    
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I'm surprised that Fender continued with the non-pedal steel guitars as long as they did (about 1981). Gibson, Rickenbacker, and Valco had all quit making them by the late 1960s. Music had changed, the world had changed... oh well, that's progress. Oh Well
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Dave Bader


From:
Pennsylvania, USA
Post  Posted 2 Jan 2011 7:43 am    
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Doug Freeman wrote:
John Groover McDuffie wrote:
Here's a question about sound: With the two "string over" pickups it looks to me like these steel guitars might be somewhat Strat-ish tone and output, compared to the string-through models and/or compared to a PSG with their (usually) hotter-wound pickups. So if you set an amps controls for a Strat or Tele and then plugged in one of these steels it would be in the right ballpark.

Yes or no?

John, I don't think you can expect an amp dialed in the way you like it for a Strat or Tele to sound the same with a Deluxe 6 or 8. I don't have a lot of experience with these guitars, only the '59 Deluxe 8 I bought from Chris Battis here a few months ago. I've found that guitar, regardless of the pickup blend, to be very big and rich sounding. I don't know if it's the pickups or the body construction but to me it sounds like a longer scale instrument (very similar in fact to the Magnatone G-65 I play a lot). In any event, it sounds bigger than a stock single coil Strat or Tele. Hit me up sometime and we can check them out.

Cheers,
Doug


John and Doug

I recently built myself a guit-steel out of an old stringmaster neck from ebay. I have a tele body on top with no-caster pickups and they are pretty equal in output to the stringmaster pickups. I've been running it though a deluxe reverb with no amp tweaking necessary. I run my blend pot closer to full humbucking but not all the way.

Dave
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Denny Turner

 

From:
Oahu, Hawaii USA
Post  Posted 18 Oct 2021 1:42 am     Re: Fender Deluxe 6 and 8 info wanted
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John Groover McDuffie wrote:
...did (Fender) use that (Deluxe) model designation for guitars with the trapezoid pickup?


John,

Here's a photo of the trapezoid pickup Deluxe model (late 1940s to early mid-1950s ..... I don't know the exact years, and have seen reports / opinions dancing around those general time periods. If someone says they know for sure the exact year(s) then they probably do).



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Glenn Wilde

 

From:
California, USA
Post  Posted 18 Oct 2021 7:01 am     Re: Fender Deluxe 6 and 8 info wanted
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Denny Turner wrote:
John Groover McDuffie wrote:
...did (Fender) use that (Deluxe) model designation for guitars with the trapezoid pickup?


John,

Here's a photo of the first Deluxe model (late 1940s to early mid-1950s ..... I don't know the exact years, and have seen reports / opinions dancing around those general time periods. If someone says they know for sure the exact year(s) then they probably do).



I've got one similar and mine has pots dated 1950, pretty sure the very first one's from '47 to '49 had roman numeral fret markers and rectangular "box car" style pickups.
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Glenn Wilde

 

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California, USA
Post  Posted 18 Oct 2021 7:05 am    
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Here's the 1950 catalog cover showing traps and roman numerals so there were transitional models.
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Allan Revich


From:
Victoria, BC
Post  Posted 18 Oct 2021 8:55 am    
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It seems highly unlikely that John is still seeking answers eleven years after asking his questions here. Rolling Eyes Laughing

Still, an interesting thread, so it’s nice that it has been resurrected.
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Joe A. Roberts


From:
Seoul, South Korea
Post  Posted 18 Oct 2021 10:14 am    
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I have never seen a Deluxe with the boxcar pickups and/or with roman numeral boards. Has anyone? Don’t believe I’ve ever seen a D6 with them either.
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Glenn Wilde

 

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California, USA
Post  Posted 18 Oct 2021 12:05 pm    
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Joe A. Roberts wrote:
I have never seen a Deluxe with the boxcar pickups and/or with roman numeral boards. Has anyone? Don’t believe I’ve ever seen a D6 with them either.

Come to think of it, i can't recall one. It seems logical that they would exist though, all other parts being shared with the consoles and knowing Leo's legendary frugality.
Maybe there were no Deluxe singles until the fretboard/pickup change around '49-'50.....interesting stuff!
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Stephen Cowell


From:
Round Rock, Texas, USA
Post  Posted 21 Oct 2021 11:44 am    
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Glenn Wilde wrote:
Joe A. Roberts wrote:
I have never seen a Deluxe with the boxcar pickups and/or with roman numeral boards. Has anyone? Don’t believe I’ve ever seen a D6 with them either.

Come to think of it, i can't recall one. It seems logical that they would exist though, all other parts being shared with the consoles and knowing Leo's legendary frugality.
Maybe there were no Deluxe singles until the fretboard/pickup change around '49-'50.....interesting stuff!


They didn't call 'em Deluxes... they were called Princetons, I believe. Started as K&F, ended as Fender. I have the matching 1947 amp (Model 26 Deluxe), not the guitar (this picture is off the intertubes). I have never seen any Fender steel guitar not a Stringmaster longer than 22.5" scale.

https://www.tdpri.com/threads/extremely-old-fender-closet-find-lap-steel.396362/


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Denny Turner

 

From:
Oahu, Hawaii USA
Post  Posted 21 Oct 2021 7:34 pm    
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Stephen,

Thank You for the info and photo. I stumbled upon this SGF discussion while searching for some related info ...which led to finding & compiling so much research info and photos that it led to combing and condensing the info and photos that would help nail down some details still not resolved in the discussion, ...but like the SGF is, the details FoBros have contributed are getting reeeeeeal close.

Yessir, that's a Fender Princeton, first produced in late 1946; Signified by it's single pot & knob. But K&F never produced that version of the Princeton; It was designed and built by Leo Fender in late 1946 after "Doc" Kaufman and "Leo" Fender parted ways; More info below:

The best I can derive: In mid-1946 when "Doc" Kaufman and "Leo" Fender parted ways, they had been producing a 2 pots & knobs steel guitar they named Princeton. When "Leo" took over the guitar building he continued to produce that same Princeton steel, with the only change being Fender logo put on the headstock to replace the previous K&F logo:

K&F:


Fender:




By late 1946 "Leo" stretched the body and redesigned the electronics plate and named his 2 pots & knobs version "Deluxe". He also made a 1 pot / knob version he named "Princeton":

1946 Deluxe; 2 knobs:



1946 Princeton; 1 knob:



I will soon be posting a brief of my research into 1945 to 1950 K&F cum Fender guitar models. I have the brief done, but I am in "Long Haul" recovery from COVID which causes the old body and brain to be rather slow, ...priorities backed up and bottle necked; But I HAVE to take breaks from much higher priorities, ...and getting back to the SGF after several years absence, is goooooood for getting the old brain to tick better.

Very Best Wishes,
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Denny Turner

 

From:
Oahu, Hawaii USA
Post  Posted 22 Oct 2021 5:12 am    
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Joe Roberts asked: "I have never seen a Deluxe with the boxcar pickups and/or with roman numeral boards. Has anyone? Don’t believe I’ve ever seen a D6 with them either."

Glen Wilde commented: "Come to think of it, i can't recall one. It seems logical that they would exist though, all other parts being shared with the consoles and knowing Leo's legendary frugality.
Maybe there were no Deluxe singles until the fretboard/pickup change around '49-'50....."

------------

REPLY:

PREFACE: The info and photos herein regard K&F and Fender steel guitars from 1945 to 1954. This info is provided to help understand some challenges in identifying what years certain models of K&F and Fender steels were produced. It is important and often even required to be able to determine what parts went on certain year Fender guitars and what year those certain parts gave way to newer versions of parts; And it's also important, sometimes required, to know or have references to K#F and Fender timeline of their steel guitar models and changes to those models; Thus I suggest saving a link to this excellent informative SGF discussion.

In the early 1940s, electronic craftsmen "Doc" Kaufman and "Leo" Fender formed a partnership to repair electronics, mostly audio amplifiers, (and related services such as rentals). They built a "shed" on the back lot of the repair business; The shed was used for experimental fabrications of parts used in electronics, and experimenting with solid body electric "Hawaiian" guitars (now known as Lap Steels or simply Steel Guitars). Doc played Hawaiian guitar. Doc concentrated and functioned primarily in amplifier repair and parts fabrication and believed that was where the most money was to be made, ...while Leo concentrated on experimenting with electric Hawaiian guitars, and believed that is where the most money was to be made via mass production. In 1945 Doc and Leo built their first electric Hawaiian guitars under the brand K&F. They built 3 different versions during 1945 and 1946, and Leo built 2 versions (Deluxe and Princeton) of a newer design after Doc and Leo parted ways in mid 1946. In mid-1946 their strong juxt opposed opinions / beliefs caused them to dissolve their partnership; Doc sticking to his electronics business, and Leo sticking to building Hawaiian guitars. Leo formed the Fender Musical Instruments Corporation, retrofitting the then-current K&F Princeton model steel guitar by applying the Fender logo on the headstock to replace the K&F logo. In the same year Leo restylized the body and electronics assembly and named it the Deluxe model (and a single volume knob version he named Princeton). It has been said by some historians that Fender's first Fender branded guitar was made for Noel Boggs, who was a major pioneer in expanding the Hawaiian / Steel Guitar into the Country Swing genre, showing that Fender's steel guitars were gaining professional players attention; And the name Hawaiian guitar rapidly gave way to being known as the Steel Guitar, due to it's breakaway from Hawaiian music to other genres. 1949 saw 3 new Fender models: The Deluxe was completely redesigned, having Leo's new pickup known today as the 'trapezoid' (aka 'trap') pickup, a new tuners pan design, and new (although similar) neck nut and bridge design, ...and a 2 neck version of the Deluxe he named 'Professional'. The 3rd new model was yet another "totally" new design named the 'Champion' that incorporated yet another new pickup that became basis for Telecaster and Stratocaster guitars right up until today. The Champion sported colors Blonde, blue, maroonish red, black, grey, ...all in acetate finishes known as 'Pearloid' and later became publicly / unofficially known as MOTS ('Mother of toilet seat'). Non-experts dating the begin dates of Fender's early steel guitars are often in error (1 year earlier than actual) due to surplus pots left over from the previous year used the following year until the surplus ran out; So a Deluxe (trap) first sold in early 1949 could have 1948 pots ...and thus the confusion with modern guitar shops ...even their techs that claim to be experts (and most actually very knowledgeable about their craft and most (but usually not all) aspects of their craft).

Keep in mind that the majority of people who date the year a guitar was manufactured, do so via the guitar's potentiometer date codes, and/or reference known serial number lists (which are sometimes goofy as some manufacturers reinvented their serial number systems); While people who really know what they are doing realize that surplus pots from any year are often not installed into a guitar until early into the next year until the surplus supply runs out, ...so knowledge people will cross reference other identifiers to best determine the year a guitar is made; And sometimes even knowledgeable people cannot tell for sure if a guitar was made in a specific year or early into the next year; A good example is that some Fender Champions made in 1949 and 1950 do not have date codes on their pots; This is likely because guitar companies often bought large batches of parts when they found them at a compelling low price, and used them until they ran out. An example is that Fender bought a very large batch of CTS pots in 1966 that lasted, and were installed in guitars until 1971. Codes on potentiometers follow (sorta) loose standards set by EIA (aka Electronic Industries Association, aka Electronic Industries Alliance) in 1949. Most manufacturers of low power potentiometers intended for guitars, quickly complied with EIA codes. However, electronic parts manufacturers were and remain free to use whatever code they desire(d) to design and apply, particularly on special designed pots. Meaning there are some codes on some relatively few guitar potentiometers that do not follow the EIA number systems, so referring to EIA publications of different manufacturers codes must be done to nail-down who made the part (like pots) and in what week of what year. Those manufacturers and their specific parts EIA codes are readily available online.

In compiling this brief / condensed posting, I have had to keep the above-said things in mind in trying best I could to determine the info & photos provided below.


PHOTOS PRESENTATION:


(1): L to R: 3 K&Fs (2 1945s and 1 1946 Princeton); and the first exclusively designed Fender, a 1946 Deluxe. Notice that roman numeral fretboard markers appeared on 1946-1948 "boxcar" pickup Deluxes starting in 1946.




(2): 1945 K&F. Painted-on (silkscreen?) frets and dots fretboard markers.





(3): 1945 K&F. Painted gray krinkle finish with painted-on (silkscreen?) frets and dots fretboard markers.




(4): Mid-1946 K&F Princeton; Bradded-on metal fretboard, Roman numeral fretboard markers.




(5): Mid-1946 (after K&F breakup) Fender Princeton; Identical to it's K&F predecessor, except Fender headstock logo replaced the K&F logo.





(6): Late-1946 Fender Deluxe. Roman numeral fretboard markers.




(7): 1947 Fender Deluxe. Roman numeral fretboard markers.




(.8.): Modern Day Fender FS-52 Deluxe; Replica of 1946-48 Deluxe. Why they named it "52", and used a blinding mirror finish fretboard is beyond me. Opportunity knocks: Replacement fretboard with the mirror glare subdued.





(9): 1946 (& 1947-1948???) Fender Princeton. Notice the Princeton has only one pot / knob. Roman numeral fretboard markers.




(10): 1950 Fender Deluxe8. Trapezoid pickup. Squares & rectangles fretboard markers.



(11): 1949 Fender Champion. Fatter Dots & Gelcaps ( Winking ) fretboard markers.




(12): 1949 Fender Champion. Fatter Dots & Gelcaps fretboard markers.




(13): 1950 Fender Champion. Slimmer Dots & Gelcaps fretboard markers.




(14): 1950 Fender Champion. Slimmer Dots & Gelcaps fretboard markers.




(15): Year Unknown. Likely 1949. Fender Dual8 Professional. Roman numeral fretboard markers. This suggests that some 1949 trapezoid pickup Deluxes also had roman numeral markers. This could also be a 1950 with 1949 surplus roman numeral fretboards until that 1949 surplus ran out. I highly suspect that the red-surrounded "pickups"(?) (or Kit-Kat candy bars) are someone's personal non-Fender modification.





(16): Year Unknown. Fender Dual8 Professional. Squares & rectangles fretboard markers. Photos 15 and 16 suggest to me that roman numeral fretboards were made for 1949 Deluxes and Professionals and could have been used in early 1950 until the roman numeral fretboards ran out and these squares & rectangles fretboards took their place.




===================================================

Well Folks, that's about it. 3:10 AM, and past bedtime.

Good Night and Very Best Wishes,
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Aloha,
Denny T~
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http://www.redcross.org/en/aboutus


Last edited by Denny Turner on 24 Oct 2021 7:34 pm; edited 3 times in total
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Stephen Cowell


From:
Round Rock, Texas, USA
Post  Posted 22 Oct 2021 1:13 pm    
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Good work Denny. Note: all short scale.
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Glenn Wilde

 

From:
California, USA
Post  Posted 22 Oct 2021 4:10 pm    
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Stephen Cowell wrote:
Glenn Wilde wrote:
Joe A. Roberts wrote:
I have never seen a Deluxe with the boxcar pickups and/or with roman numeral boards. Has anyone? Don’t believe I’ve ever seen a D6 with them either.

Come to think of it, i can't recall one. It seems logical that they would exist though, all other parts being shared with the consoles and knowing Leo's legendary frugality.
Maybe there were no Deluxe singles until the fretboard/pickup change around '49-'50.....interesting stuff!


They didn't call 'em Deluxes... they were called Princetons, I believe. Started as K&F, ended as Fender. I have the matching 1947 amp (Model 26 Deluxe), not the guitar (this picture is off the intertubes). I have never seen any Fender steel guitar not a Stringmaster longer than 22.5" scale.

https://www.tdpri.com/threads/extremely-old-fender-closet-find-lap-steel.396362/


Well, i guess i got one of those then, just didn't know its name. I was thinking of the later style wedge shaped bodies.
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