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Topic: Williams U-12 Copedent questions |
Zach Lattin
From:
Washington, USA
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Posted 21 Oct 2021 9:19 am |
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I am strongly considering a Williams U-12 for a second lighter gigging / travel guitar. (I play a Williams D-10 right now and love it, and have experimented with enough lap steel tunings back in the day to not be too worried about transitioning to U-12 with that missing string 9 on the traditional e-9th neck.) Anyway, my question is: what do you think of the Williams stock U-12 copedent? (link: https://www.williamsguitarcompany.com/E9_B6_Universal_Tuning.htm) Do you U-12 players see anything missing, or anything you'd wish you added? If I added one more pedal what should it do? Would it be worth it to look into having a Franklin pedal added to this copedent or is that change buried in there somewhere that I'm just not seeing? If you're a c-6th player do you see anything that you'd miss? I know Williams will work with me on this too, but wanted to get some of this group's feedback.
I play and practice pretty equally on both necks right now and though I have considered myself to be primarily a c-6th player I find myself more and more seduced by the E-9 sound in my noodling. I also don't mind admitting that I like a high g on my c-6th neck. NO opinion will offend me; let's hear it! |
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Pete Burak
From:
Portland, OR USA
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Posted 21 Oct 2021 10:18 am
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Zach if you are near Portland I am a Universal player and could show you some Universal ideas if you are interested.
That Williams chart is a good starting point, although I have added alot of other changes.
Pete |
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Zach Lattin
From:
Washington, USA
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Posted 21 Oct 2021 12:00 pm
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I am interested! I will PM you. Are your changes on levers or pedals or both? I'm torn between wanting to keep it light and wanting some extras. Also forgot to ask in the OP if there are any places where splits would be useful on a U-12? I regret not having a split for A + B + LKV for that way of playing a minor chord on the E-9 side of things.
| Pete Burak wrote: |
Zach if you are near Portland I am a Universal player and could show you some Universal ideas if you are interested.
That Williams chart is a good starting point, although I have added alot of other changes.
Pete |
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Pete Burak
From:
Portland, OR USA
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Posted 21 Oct 2021 12:34 pm
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I would say A+B+LKV is a good one for Uni.
Also have some way to lower G# to G. |
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J D Sauser
From:
Wellington, Florida
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Posted 21 Oct 2021 2:28 pm
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There is nothing missing, but I would say this:
I don't see the need for BOTH, the 8th string E-to-D drop AND the 9th string B-to-D.
Both give you E9th (Dom7th/9th). This stems out of a "Two Tunings Thinking".
I would move the 8th string drop to a lever. It brings the "5th" & "7th" pedal changes next to each others, which makes playing them together with one instead of two feet, AND you still can add the "6th pedal" change (now on a lever) to the mix.
B6th also uses the G#-to-A raise (on C6th A-to-Bb) as a very common ad-on lever.
It is OFTEN used without pedals but also with the "6th pedal" engaged. On a Universal the "B-pedal" is THAT change... having the "6th-pedal"-change now on a knee lever, makes it reachable.
And with that your free up a knee lever for something more useful.
I find the E-to-Eb lever going -> right harder to hold over a longer time than going <-. If you put that on LKL it helps you pull your legs "together" towards the pedal to the right. That's very personal.
I would put the B-to-Bb lower on LKR, you will have easier reach to it while over the far right pedals where you are going to use it a LOT.
Finally, I would consider tuning the bottom string up a full tone from a low B to C#.
Maurice had that and it opens many more possibilities. You can eliminate the B-to-C# raise on the "5-pedal" change and may opt. to drop 5-semi tones on the 8th-pedal change with I would have on the original far right IF you move the "6-pedal"-change to a lever as suggested above.
... J-D.
_________________
__________________________________________________________
Was it JFK who said: Ask Not What TAB Can Do For You - Rather Ask Yourself "What Would B.B. King Do?"
A Little Mental Health Warning:
Tablature KILLS SKILLS.
The uses of Tablature is addictive and has been linked to reduced musical fertility.
Those who produce Tablature did never use it.
I say it humorously, but I mean it. |
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J D Sauser
From:
Wellington, Florida
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Posted 21 Oct 2021 3:08 pm
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| Zach Lattin wrote: |
I am interested! I will PM you. Are your changes on levers or pedals or both? I'm torn between wanting to keep it light and wanting some extras. Also forgot to ask in the OP if there are any places where splits would be useful on a U-12? I regret not having a split for A + B + LKV for that way of playing a minor chord on the E-9 side of things.
| Pete Burak wrote: |
Zach if you are near Portland I am a Universal player and could show you some Universal ideas if you are interested.
That Williams chart is a good starting point, although I have added alot of other changes.
Pete |
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... and if you can see Pete Burak, GO!... J-D.
_________________
__________________________________________________________
Was it JFK who said: Ask Not What TAB Can Do For You - Rather Ask Yourself "What Would B.B. King Do?"
A Little Mental Health Warning:
Tablature KILLS SKILLS.
The uses of Tablature is addictive and has been linked to reduced musical fertility.
Those who produce Tablature did never use it.
I say it humorously, but I mean it. |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 21 Oct 2021 4:07 pm
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Out of all J.D.'s suggestions there is only one I would take issue with:- You do need both D's, the lowered 8 and the raised 9. They have totally different characters and uses. The lowered 8 is a basic change on the B6 side, and on the E9 if you release the D with the A pedal engaged you've got the same move as lowering your original 9th string D. And if you compare the 13th or #9 chords with 5A and 6 you'll notice a big difference in the voicing.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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J D Sauser
From:
Wellington, Florida
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Posted 21 Oct 2021 4:25 pm
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| Ian Rae wrote: |
| Out of all J.D.'s suggestions there is only one I would take issue with:- You do need both D's, the lowered 8 and the raised 9. They have totally different characters and uses. The lowered 8 is a basic change on the B6 side, and on the E9 if you release the D with the A pedal engaged you've got the same move as lowering your original 9th string D. And if you compare the 13th or #9 chords with 5A and 6 you'll notice a big difference in the voicing. |
Ture, you "loose" some, but with a Universal setup, you'll find most somewhere else.
Now, if you are a "firm" E9th player, I agree, you will miss that D, E, F# at times.
But I'd rather have a completely different change instead. It's give and take.
On today's guitars, being half way handy, nothing is "hard wired".
Then again, I left E9th... for a loaded C6th with 5P & 7L... so, my views are all BUT standard.
... J-D.
_________________
__________________________________________________________
Was it JFK who said: Ask Not What TAB Can Do For You - Rather Ask Yourself "What Would B.B. King Do?"
A Little Mental Health Warning:
Tablature KILLS SKILLS.
The uses of Tablature is addictive and has been linked to reduced musical fertility.
Those who produce Tablature did never use it.
I say it humorously, but I mean it. |
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Dennis Detweiler
From:
Solon, Iowa, US
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Posted 21 Oct 2021 7:18 pm
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To me, the E's to Eb on the LKL would be a little of a contortion to the left foot movements with the A and B pedals on the E9th side of the tuning? Rocking the foot off of A pedal and playing the B pedal while holding the LKL? I have mine on the RKR. The original reason to have the Eb lever on the RKR or RKL on the U-12 was to free the left leg to play all 7 floor pedals unhindered. I've thought about moving pedal 7 to a knee lever many times over the years. If so, I would have two LKR levers (6 knee levers) and flip one out of the way when necessary. Currently, I'm lowering 6 and 10 (G#'s) down to F#'s with the LKR, which is used on E9th.
_________________
1976 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics 427 pickup, 1975 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics X-12 pickup, Boss 59 Fender pedal for preamp, NDR-5 Atlantic Delay & Reverb, two Quilter 201 amps, 2- 12" Eminence EPS-12C speakers, ShoBud Pedal, 1949 Epiphone D-8. Revelation preamp into a Crown XLS 1002 power amp. |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 21 Oct 2021 7:30 pm
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It looks like all of the right changes to me. I'd think carefully about the positions of the knee levers, though. Don't stray too far from what you're used to. E9/B6 pretty much requires that you lower Es on your right knee. I think that most people keep their E raises on LKL (unless their E9 pedals are CBA).
I've never understood having the C6th P8 changes on P4, but it appears to be very common among U-12 players.
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Dennis Detweiler
From:
Solon, Iowa, US
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Posted 21 Oct 2021 8:29 pm
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I have my 2nd string tuned to C#. It fits well with B6th. I raise it to D/D# with the LKL along with the 9th string B to D. I conjured up my own feel stop that doesn't use a spring tension. It doesn't cause extra force to move the string to D#. Thus, keeping the LKL as easy to engage as possible.
_________________
1976 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics 427 pickup, 1975 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics X-12 pickup, Boss 59 Fender pedal for preamp, NDR-5 Atlantic Delay & Reverb, two Quilter 201 amps, 2- 12" Eminence EPS-12C speakers, ShoBud Pedal, 1949 Epiphone D-8. Revelation preamp into a Crown XLS 1002 power amp. |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 22 Oct 2021 12:46 am
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I have that same change, which I think of as the "E9 lever".
But with no extra force, what is there to feel?
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Dennis Detweiler
From:
Solon, Iowa, US
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Posted 22 Oct 2021 6:01 am
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I notched a pull rod for the 2nd string and it lays over the top of a small roller. When the rod moves toward the raise to D# it drops into that notch it's the D note (positive feel). Then continue past the notch to D#. Works great. Tuneable. No extra tension to get to the D#.
_________________
1976 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics 427 pickup, 1975 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics X-12 pickup, Boss 59 Fender pedal for preamp, NDR-5 Atlantic Delay & Reverb, two Quilter 201 amps, 2- 12" Eminence EPS-12C speakers, ShoBud Pedal, 1949 Epiphone D-8. Revelation preamp into a Crown XLS 1002 power amp.
Last edited by Dennis Detweiler on 22 Oct 2021 6:33 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Dennis Detweiler
From:
Solon, Iowa, US
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Posted 22 Oct 2021 6:16 am
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This is a photo of it. I couldn't get the short video to load. I'll see if I can find the original post with the video.
The rod rests in the notch. When the main pull rod moves forward it touches the tuning knob. Push the main rod farther and it moves the notched rod off of the roller and continues to the full stop. The spring just has a slight tension downward to hold notch onto the roller. Once past the notch there is no noticeable tension.
_________________
1976 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics 427 pickup, 1975 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics X-12 pickup, Boss 59 Fender pedal for preamp, NDR-5 Atlantic Delay & Reverb, two Quilter 201 amps, 2- 12" Eminence EPS-12C speakers, ShoBud Pedal, 1949 Epiphone D-8. Revelation preamp into a Crown XLS 1002 power amp. |
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Dennis Detweiler
From:
Solon, Iowa, US
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Posted 22 Oct 2021 6:32 am
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The old post detailing the mechanics of it is subject: Half Stop That Works. I couldn't load the video at that time either. Only the picture. I can send the video via private email. Just won't load onto the forum because of the format. Also, on the original post a fellow forumite posted a drawing of the half stop correctly.
_________________
1976 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics 427 pickup, 1975 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics X-12 pickup, Boss 59 Fender pedal for preamp, NDR-5 Atlantic Delay & Reverb, two Quilter 201 amps, 2- 12" Eminence EPS-12C speakers, ShoBud Pedal, 1949 Epiphone D-8. Revelation preamp into a Crown XLS 1002 power amp. |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Zach Lattin
From:
Washington, USA
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Posted 22 Oct 2021 7:49 am
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Thank you Ian and J.D. for all of your posts (in this thread and all over the forum!); I will think long and hard about whether I want D's on both strings 8 and 9. Also like your thinking about putting the traditional P8 change back in its place, so moving it from P4 on the Williams copedent, but I'm open to hearing the thinking behind why it's on P4. I use that change a lot when playing basic blues on my c-6th playing and wouldn't want to screw it up.
When I ordered my first guitar I really thought about just getting a C-6th setup with pedals and no second neck and almost went through with it. Interesting to hear about someone else who plays that setup.
And yes, I plan on meeting up with Pete.
| J D Sauser wrote: |
| Ian Rae wrote: |
| Out of all J.D.'s suggestions there is only one I would take issue with:- You do need both D's, the lowered 8 and the raised 9. They have totally different characters and uses. The lowered 8 is a basic change on the B6 side, and on the E9 if you release the D with the A pedal engaged you've got the same move as lowering your original 9th string D. And if you compare the 13th or #9 chords with 5A and 6 you'll notice a big difference in the voicing. |
Ture, you "loose" some, but with a Universal setup, you'll find most somewhere else.
Now, if you are a "firm" E9th player, I agree, you will miss that D, E, F# at times.
But I'd rather have a completely different change instead. It's give and take.
On today's guitars, being half way handy, nothing is "hard wired".
Then again, I left E9th... for a loaded C6th with 5P & 7L... so, my views are all BUT standard.
... J-D. |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 22 Oct 2021 8:40 am
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| Zach Lattin wrote: |
| I ordered my first guitar I really thought about just getting a C-6th setup with pedals and no second neck and almost went through with it. Interesting to hear about someone else who plays that setup. |
Mine is D6th (6+6), but it has the standard E9th and C6th changes. It covers a lot of territory in 10 strings. See the D6th link in my signature for details.
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video
Last edited by b0b on 22 Oct 2021 8:44 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 22 Oct 2021 8:42 am
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What follows was the design philosophy I used to build my first uni 12 and which I continued with the guitars I had build subsequently. I shall state it baldly and without justification.
E lowers go on RKR. Day setup is best, and the F lever goes on LKR as E and F are better split. String 2 is C# and RKL raises it to D and D# and also raises 9 to D. LKL lowers 6 & 10 to F#. This basic setup should work for anybody.
I use two further personal refinements. P6 is also on RKR (D#s are on a ½-stop), and the useful bit of P8 (by which I mean the 9th-string raise to B#) is on the centre vertical. This way I have P5 and P7 next to each other and I can play any combination of 5,6,7 & 8 without two-footing.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Pete Burak
From:
Portland, OR USA
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Posted 22 Oct 2021 9:28 am
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My recommendation would be to set it up with pedals/levers pretty much identically to his D10.
Fwiw, I played a Uni last week with E-lowers on LKR.
It did not seem like an issue at all to hold over while playing B6th pedals. |
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Zach Lattin
From:
Washington, USA
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Posted 22 Oct 2021 10:56 am
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| Pete Burak wrote: |
My recommendation would be to set it up with pedals/levers pretty much identically to his D10.
Fwiw, I played a Uni last week with E-lowers on LKR.
It did not seem like an issue at all to hold over while playing B6th pedals. |
Yup, trying to keep things as close to my D-10 as possible, which probably means e lowers on lkr for me, as even *thinking* about playing an e9 dom 7 with b-pedal plus any other knee without my guitar in front of me is stressing me out. I also like the suggested G#-to-A raise as I already have and use that all the time on my D-10. Forgive my ignorance, but what's the thinking for those of you who change your strings 1 and two away from the the traditional eb and f#? Doesn't that mess up your E9 licks? |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 22 Oct 2021 12:46 pm
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Here you are, b0b
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Pete Burak
From:
Portland, OR USA
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Posted 22 Oct 2021 1:23 pm
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| Zach Lattin wrote: |
Forgive my ignorance, but what's the thinking for those of you who change your strings 1 and two away from the the traditional eb and f#? Doesn't that mess up your E9 licks? |
There is a style of Universal called "Bb6 Universal".
They change the order of the first 3 strings to favor the 6th tuning, and tune the open tuning down a half step.
I like alot of that thinking, and changed the order of my top three strings to 1=D#, 2=G#,and 3=F#.
All the existing E9th licks are still there, although there are a few slightly different grips for E9th.
I happen to like this string order better, because on Universal you get two stacks of G#, F#, E, B, on strings 2-5 and 6-10. It makes more sence to me.
For example, on E9th strings 6,7,8 are G#, F#, E, so now 2,3,4 are also G#, F#, E, and that pesky string-2 is out of the way on string-1 now.
The B6th side of the tuning workes out really great with this string order. When I lower my E's for B6th, it also lowers the D# to C#, giving me what the C6th guys call D-on-top, plus you also get what you want, the G-on-top.
I tune down a half step because I like to have open-E and open-A on the first fret using the bar. I play with alot of bands that do alot of songs in E and A. Always hated having to lift the bar, so now they are on fret-1.
I would call it Eb9/Bb6 Universal.
Last edited by Pete Burak on 22 Oct 2021 1:31 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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