Revelation thru a Class D similar to Milkman ?

Scott Denniston · From: Hahns Peak, Colorado, USA

I'm just wondering out loud if a tube pre like the Rev through say a Ganz class D wouldn't be basically the same thing as the Milkman Half and Half if the right speaker were used. As I understand the Milkman uses a class D power amp. Not trying to stir anything up as I'm pretty ignorant about electronics but on the surface it seems one would just have a high quality tube pre in the Rev with more variables. I'll get around to trying this. If it's magical I think I see a Tommy Huff custom cab in my future to house a combo like that.

Ron Funk · From: Ballwin, Missouri

Scott -

Not a direct response to your question, but the Furlong SPLITs contain a Class D Power Amp.

Coupled with the Rev and a Lexicon MPX-1, that setup (with two SPLITs) was my go-to-rig for a number of years.

Light weight rig with all the Tone you'd ever want.

Good luck on your journey -

Ron

Scott Denniston · From: Hahns Peak, Colorado, USA

I've still got my Rev. I used to use it through a VHT 2/90/2 stereo tube power amp, MPX1 and two heavy cabs. It was the best sound wise but just too dang HEAVY to lug that stuff around. Now with the light stuff that's out (speakers, cabs, class D power) It seems I could make a very nice combo amp. Even throw in another light cab & class D for stereo. I already have too many amps but I guess it's an addiction Laughing

Larry Dering · From: Missouri, USA

Is there such a thing as too many amps. I'm in the same zone. I have a revelation, a Quilter Micropro combo, a 101 mini and a pair of Evans cabinets. I haven't tried your combination but may give it a whirl and see. I'm also working to downsize my gear.

Scott Denniston · From: Hahns Peak, Colorado, USA

It seems to me we can either sell the Revelation or put it to good use. I think it's the best tube pre ever built for steel. It's certainly not heavy. So why not put it in a custom combo with other light components? Then if desired add another cab for stereo. Even if it doesn't cream the Milkman (pun intended) it would probably be a great light combo. I'd try it today but am getting ready to blast off in the truck for a couple of months.

J Fletcher · From: London,Ont,Canada

I would expect there are differences between different class D amps . I think the Fender Tonemaster amps use the B&O Ice Power class D amp modules , and perhaps the Milkman too .

Larry Dering · From: Missouri, USA

One problem is the overall size and weight. The Revelation is 2 rack spaces, Lexicon MPX-1 is one space then a power amp, or maybe powered speakers. With the steel, seat, 2 cabs plus rack unit, it becomes a pile of equipment. The overall weight vs multiple trips in and out. While it sounds great I tend to go for the single amp, steel and seat. The Quilter has a direct out for the PA and this makes the system quicker, lightweight and better for gigs.

Scott Denniston · From: Hahns Peak, Colorado, USA

That's where I'm in the dark (the class D power). I do know two things though: The Jay Ganz is 500 watts and the Milkman is 300 watts. And the Jay Ganz does sound great. Oh yeah, and the Jay Ganz Power Amp weighs about 1 1/2 pounds and will fit easily into most cabs. I've only had that power amp for a while and haven't seen reviews on it's longevity. It's certainly got the power but I can't talk about differences in class D amps. When I first started reading reviews by bass players using the Ganz amp some were assuming he was putting an ICE module in a little box but they were mistaken. Of course the ICE is available too but for way more than the Ganz.
Larry: I wasn't considering a rackspace for fx. I do like my NUX Atlantic Reverb/ delay for that. What got me thinking about this was lifting my Tommy Huff cab with the Ganz laying inside and realizing that Rev wouldn't add much. Or I could spend $2300 on a Milkman. See I'm talking about one combo amp too. Just having a light cab built that would accomodate the two space (light) Revelation.

Scott Denniston · From: Hahns Peak, Colorado, USA

I've got my Rev/Ganz/Huff combo idea weighing in at about 29 pounds when loaded with an Eminence TT-12 speaker. And this ain't no model of a great tube pre amp but the real thing. Plus stereo option.

forrest klott · From: Grand Rapids Mi USA

Can any of you fellas chime in with your settings for the rev? Iâ€™ve struggled with mine as far as getting what I want to hear. I can dial in my LW PF89 in about thirty seconds. There just seem to be so many variables to the Rev and I know itâ€™s got what Iâ€™m looking for in there somewhere.

I get that EQâ€™s are going to change room to room and even over the course of the night, looking for a starting point to hopefully get in the ballpark.

Thanks in advance,

Skeeter

Scott Denniston · From: Hahns Peak, Colorado, USA

It's been a while for me so I don't remember. As I recall though the "Color" knob is a midrange shift sort of thing. You could probably do a search and find some settings for starting points. I'd like to find John Hughey's settings. I'm sure they're out there somewhere.

Scott Denniston · From: Hahns Peak, Colorado, USA

I just dug out my Revelation and the depth of it including the face is about 10". So my estimation of the cab weight is off. It would have to be a little bigger making the weight a little more but not by much. I'd think the whole assembly would be under 33 lbs.

Bob Hoffnar · From: Austin, Tx

I do know Tim spent quite a bit of time testing different class D amps until he found a builder he could work with. For a perfect light amp the milkman is hard to beat tone wise. I also use a Sarno V8 pre mostly for recording direct these days and it is absolutely gorgeous sounding.
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Bob

Scott Denniston · From: Hahns Peak, Colorado, USA

Yeah this will be an interesting experiment. I won't get to it for a couple of months. I did read Brad once saying he really liked the Rev through the Ganz power amp. It's not like it's a cheapy way to go. But I've got this Rev pre that's just wonderful that was around $900 and I've just realized it's a viable option for a combo and not only for a rack system. The only reason I mentioned the Milkman in the title was that it seems like the same principal. Take an exceptional tube pre and run it through a class D for a light and powerful and great sounding amp.

Dennis Detweiler · From: Solon, Iowa, US

1) I have 3 different amp rigs. My rev sets in a rack with a Crown XLS 102 Class D. It's a light weight mono/stereo amp. I use it with 2 Eminence 12 inch neo speakers in separate cabinets. Relatively a light weight rig. I have a digital reverb pedal mounted inside the rack, patched through the rev. I control the amount of reverb with the effects knob on the front of the rev. It's a fairly quick setup time. The reverb power supply, Rev and Crown are already plugged into the power strip inside the rack case. I power up the whole system with a single power cord input that I mounted into the rack case.

2) 1974 Session 400 (upgraded) with 1501 flat magnet speaker. It has casters, but sets in my music room.

3) Quilter 201 connected to a Boss 59 Bassman pedal for a preamp. Between the settings on the 201 and Bassman pedal, I can dial in clean multiple settings. This rig is using the Nux delay/reverb. Very light weight in a small carrying case. Also the two light weight neo 12's with this one.

Which one to use is a major decision. Mostly determined by how my back feels that day.
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1976 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics 427 pickup, 1975 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics X-12 pickup, Boss 59 Fender pedal for preamp, NDR-5 Atlantic Delay & Reverb, two Quilter 201 amps, 2- 12" Eminence EPS-12C speakers, ShoBud Pedal, 1949 Epiphone D-8. Revelation preamp into a Crown XLS 1002 power amp.

Tom Dillon · From: La Mesa, California, USA

Scott, for about a year I used exactly the rig you are asking about - my Revelation in a rack and a small cab with a Ganz Straight Ahead amp mounted inside. TT-12 speaker in the cab. I mounted Neunaber Reverb and Cab Sim pedals inside the rack. It worked out really well. Most of the time the band used in ear monitors and I didn't use the cabinet. I just sent the output from the Neunaber Iconoclast cab sim pedal to the PA.

I also had a Milkman Half and Half head and cabinet. Both sounded great. The newer H&H amps have a DI, but with no cab sim. I used the Iconoclast and sent that direct when using in ears. Both were very good sounding rigs> Not exactly the same sound but I liked them equally. I guess I'd say the Milkman was lighter and a bit easier to set up and use.
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Tom Dillon
- MSA Legend, On-Trak, fiddles, mandos

Ray DeVoe · From: Hudson, FL

Scott

I made a combo amp set up around 15 years ago but I eventually went back to a rack and powered speaker setup as my cabinet and components were heavier at that time. I did not use the Revelation but I did use it's single space counterpart, the Sarno Classic for a preamp.

You are already addressing some of the concerns I had with this combo setup. I started out by purchasing the 2 rack space powered cabinet from TC Furlong. I think it was the only rack space cabinet that he ever produced. Its a really nice looking but rather large cabinet and the Furlong power module is quite a bit heavier than the Ganz power unit. I was up to 48 pounds after I added the preamp, TC Electronics M One and a Telonics 15" Neo speaker. The other item with the setup is that the Classic does not have an effect loop and the the effects unit had to be run between the preamp out and power module in. This made it harder to control gain and volume wise. I eventually disassembled everything and put the components in a 4 space SKB rack and used the power module in a 15" cabinet I had sitting around.

My main take out amp rigs today are as follows.

One of my 4 space racks with Revelation preamp ( standard or octal tube models ) with Lexicon MPX 1 effects unit. My power section usually consists of one Webb cabinet with JBL K 130 speaker. ( I installed Furlong power modules in the Webbs.) My other option is a pair of Furlong 12" splits. A 12" combined with a 15 " cabinet sounds very good as well.

Ray D
_________________
Zum SD 10 Hybrid, Zum D 10 Hybrid, Emmons SD 10 P.P.
SMS: Revelation & Classic Preamps: Furlong 12" & 15" Splits.
Telonics 500 C: Quilter-T.T.12": Fender T.M. Twin

Scott Denniston · From: Hahns Peak, Colorado, USA

Thanks a lot for all the feedback. I'll probably rethink this a few times over the next couple of months. I guess the main goals for me are: keep it light, quick setup (few components), and stop letting that preamp (Rev) collect dust.
Another scenario I've looked at is having another light speaker cab built and power them both with Ganz amps inside the cabs and house the Revelation like I have the Kemper with a soft 2 space rack case. That's worked well for the Kemper. It has a shoulder strap and weighs nothing. I'll make a clip-on leg platform for the Nux Reverb/Delay. In my world the soft rack cases are not too risky and sure are nice. You just unzip the front and rear panels and they're ready to go.
This way I'll have three excellent light rigs to choose from. My Peavey Session 115 is very light too and the fx in it are really pretty good. Thanks again for the input and photos. It's great to hear that the Ganz amp worked out well too.

Ray DeVoe · From: Hudson, FL

Morning Scott

Here are two combo cabinets that preceded the Milkman Half and Half. Tim built the Half and Half after analyzing these setups. I still have the 12 " combo in operation. I have everything needed to put the 15" back together again but I don't see any point in it. The Tonic is a good little Preamp but it wont do what the Revelation can. The Revelation has been my preamp of choice ever since Brad started making them.

Both of the below amps were the first two that Brad and TC collaborated on. The cabinets were made strictly for the Tonic preamp.

As to the subject of keeping weight down verses less trips in and out when transporting equipment, most of us are at a point where we are using split cases for our steels. We will always have a bunch of equipment to move around.

Have fun with your project and have a good week.

Ray D
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Zum SD 10 Hybrid, Zum D 10 Hybrid, Emmons SD 10 P.P.
SMS: Revelation & Classic Preamps: Furlong 12" & 15" Splits.
Telonics 500 C: Quilter-T.T.12": Fender T.M. Twin

Larry Dering · From: Missouri, USA

These settings are what was on my Revelation when I bought it. To me with two 15 inch cabinets it sounds close to Hugheys settings. Only my poor playing alters the wonderful tone.

Ray DeVoe · From: Hudson, FL

Hi Larry.

Just a question on your settings. Are you running the effects unit though the loop or direct in-between the preamp and power module? I ask this as I spotted that the effect loop mixing control was set all of the way down.

One thing for sure is that its hard to get a bad tone out of the Revelation. I played this past Sunday and my settings were a little bit different than yours but there are so many variables in the final sound. Some of my tone shaping is coming from the effects patch in the Lexicon.
Another tone shaping feature is the gain verses master volume settings. If you run the gain just a little higher than the master, it adds a bit of compression to the signal which thickens and warms the sound.

That's my understanding of the unit and how to get the most out of it. My settings for the standard tube Revelation verses my Octal tube model are not much different. I always have to run the gain and master higher on the octal tube model and I run the treble a little lower.

I don't know if you remember it Larry but you shared a lot of helpful information with me on the Lexicon MPX 1 unit when I first purchased one. Thanks again for the help.

Ray D
_________________
Zum SD 10 Hybrid, Zum D 10 Hybrid, Emmons SD 10 P.P.
SMS: Revelation & Classic Preamps: Furlong 12" & 15" Splits.
Telonics 500 C: Quilter-T.T.12": Fender T.M. Twin

Larry Dering · From: Missouri, USA

Ray, good catch and yes I do remember you. I haven't used this rig in a while but it was not wired through the loop, it was preamp to Lexicon and Lexicon to power amp. I was going to mention that fact but I used it for bait. We don't know if Hughey used his like this. Randy Beavers settings indicate he had his going through the loop. Anytime you see an effects setting with 100% mix it is going through the loop. Also speaker cabinets and type have a major impact on tone. The 3 cable hookup has some bearing on tones too. I try various things to compare.

Dennis Detweiler · From: Solon, Iowa, US

The Rev is a complex preamp. I conversed with Brad several times trying to dial in the tone I liked. One knob can effect another.

The treble control also moves the midrange frequency. If you turn the treble way up, the mid frequency can shift down below 300hz. If you turn the treble way down, the mid frequency can go up to 1kHz.

The color control gives a bit of over-ride over the dip frequency. If you leave the color control at noon, then it's a standard tone-stack. Turning the color above noon helps to take more control over that frequency. So, it's interactive with the treble setting.

The gain control will also effect the tone. Set the gain low and get a more crisp tone. Set the gain high and you get a warmer tone.

The vari-Z changes the pickup load (tone).
It gets confusing and takes some time to hone in on your prefered setting.
_________________
1976 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics 427 pickup, 1975 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics X-12 pickup, Boss 59 Fender pedal for preamp, NDR-5 Atlantic Delay & Reverb, two Quilter 201 amps, 2- 12" Eminence EPS-12C speakers, ShoBud Pedal, 1949 Epiphone D-8. Revelation preamp into a Crown XLS 1002 power amp.

Ray DeVoe · From: Hudson, FL

Larry: I had quite a few lengthy discussions with Brad S. concerning settings on the Octal tube Revelation. During one of these discussions, he mentioned that John Hughey did run the MPX 1 effects unit in-between the preamp out and power amp/module in. I'm sure not one to question anything that the great John Hughey did but I personally prefer the MPX 1 in the loop as I can control the effect mix better. This of course requires that the input /output levels and effect patch levels be set different between the two routings. I tried your Revelation settings last night in my music room and they sounded very good as well. The tone had a lot of punch to it and would cut through a mix nicely.

Dennis: You very nicely summed up the tone shaping features of the Revelation. As an amp building friend of mine always states, everything affects everything.

Scott: We kind of hi jacked your thread a little but a lot of it does center around getting the most out of the Revelation in a setup.

Have a good day and stay safe out there.
Ray D
_________________
Zum SD 10 Hybrid, Zum D 10 Hybrid, Emmons SD 10 P.P.
SMS: Revelation & Classic Preamps: Furlong 12" & 15" Splits.
Telonics 500 C: Quilter-T.T.12": Fender T.M. Twin

Larry Dering · From: Missouri, USA

All great information and I enjoy reading other options and seeing various setups. Seems like our taste and desires change over time. The weight factor and trip hassle always enters the fold. Overall some nice equipment that no doubt will deliver the goods.

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