| Author |
Topic: The difference in a excellent steel an a special steel! |
Johnie King
From:
Tennessee, USA
|
Posted 15 Oct 2021 7:42 am |
|
The average steel may feel like a great instrument a complaint tool an servant.
The really great steels feel alive an they may make suggestions that you would not have thought of"!!!
Best before you buy you too find the steel that falls into the great category.
Odds are old Sho~Buds an Emmons Push pulls increase your odds of finding a great
Instrument. |
|
|
|
richard burton
From:
Britain
|
Posted 15 Oct 2021 8:27 am
|
|
The difference in an excellent steel and a special steel is non-existent, it's who's driving it that matters  |
|
|
|
Johnny Cox
From:
Williamsom WVA, raised in Nashville TN, Lives in Hallettsville Texas
|
Posted 15 Oct 2021 8:51 am
|
|
| richard burton wrote: |
| The difference in an excellent steel and a special steel is non-existent, it's who's driving it that matters |
I disagree. As a professional for over 50 years I can say that I can make any steel sound good, but there are some guitars that make me want to play. They react to my input, they fit. They feel like an extention of me. They sparkle,, they speak.Those are the special guitar Johnnie is speaking of and they are in the minority of all the guitars available.
_________________
Johnny "Dumplin" Cox
"YANKIN' STRINGS & STOMPIN' PEDALS" since 1967. |
|
|
|
Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
|
Posted 15 Oct 2021 10:56 am
|
|
It's not the hammer or saw that makes a good carpenter!  |
|
|
|
Kelcey ONeil
From:
Sevierville, TN
|
Posted 15 Oct 2021 3:37 pm
|
|
| Donny Hinson wrote: |
| It's not the hammer or saw that makes a good carpenter! |
True, but he'll do a lot better with a 16oz Estwing rather than 5lb sledge!
_________________
Co-owner and operator: Emmons Guitar Co. |
|
|
|
Mike Holder
From:
Alabama! Home of the great “Don Helms” & his singer “Hank Williams”!
|
Posted 15 Oct 2021 4:32 pm
|
|
I agree with Johnny Cox and he does just that, sound great on anything he plays. It’s in the hands, the head and the heart!
_________________
I thought Nashville was the roughest, but I know I’ve said the same about them all.
I received my education, drivin through the Nation listenin to Paul!.. ( Franklin that is! ) |
|
|
|
J D Sauser
From:
Wellington, Florida
|
Posted 15 Oct 2021 6:59 pm
|
|
Maurice Anderson and I once discussed "dogs" and "diamonds" in steel and Maurice told me that in the "old" MSA days, every once in a time, Bud Carter would call Maurice to final tuning "room" and just say "here is one!"...
They tried to investigate those "special" ones each time they came up. Mind you, MSA was one know for many things, CONSISTENCY of their products, probably one of the best known. They tried and tried, but never could put the finger on the secret behind those "special" ones. Likewise, he admitted, a "Dawg" would turn up... and there was no turning it into even a "normal" guitar. So wound up in the dumpster, once stripped of all useable hardware.
I think some of the technologically well equipped MFG's now can make endplates final-machined to each body's exact actual dimensions. THIS should help eliminate "Dawgs".
But every once in a time, even a most consistent builder will be surprised by one of his creations.
... J-D.
_________________
__________________________________________________________
Was it JFK who said: Ask Not What TAB Can Do For You - Rather Ask Yourself "What Would B.B. King Do?"
A Little Mental Health Warning:
Tablature KILLS SKILLS.
The uses of Tablature is addictive and has been linked to reduced musical fertility.
Those who produce Tablature did never use it.
I say it humorously, but I mean it. |
|
|
|
John Hyland
From:
South Australia
|
Posted 15 Oct 2021 7:07 pm
|
|
| Johnny Cox wrote: |
| richard burton wrote: |
| The difference in an excellent steel and a special steel is non-existent, it's who's driving it that matters |
I disagree. As a professional for over 50 years I can say that I can make any steel sound good, but there are some guitars that make me want to play. They react to my input, they fit. They feel like an extention of me. They sparkle,, they speak.Those are the special guitar Johnnie is speaking of and they are in the minority of all the guitars available. |
Johnny I agree. It is the same for all instruments, some inspire others don’t. If a good player can make any instrument sound good why are Stradivarius violins so valuable. |
|
|
|
Johnie King
From:
Tennessee, USA
|
Posted 16 Oct 2021 5:28 am
|
|
Thanks Johnny we know all steels an all instruments made from the same tree on the same day can be different in tone. It's been this way sense
Instruments were first made including the harp.
| Johnny Cox wrote: |
| richard burton wrote: |
| The difference in an excellent steel and a special steel is non-existent, it's who's driving it that matters |
I disagree. As a professional for over 50 years I can say that I can make any steel sound good, but there are some guitars that make me want to play. They react to my input, they fit. They feel like an extention of me. They sparkle,, they speak.Those are the special guitar Johnnie is speaking of and they are in the minority of all the guitars available. |
|
|
|
|
Al Evans
From:
Austin, Texas, USA
|
Posted 16 Oct 2021 6:04 am
|
|
| Johnny Cox wrote: |
| ...As a professional for over 50 years I can say that I can make any steel sound good, but there are some guitars that make me want to play. They react to my input, they fit. They feel like an extention of me. They sparkle,, they speak.Those are the special guitar Johnnie is speaking of and they are in the minority of all the guitars available. |
For me, the REALLY good instruments not only feel like an extension, they SUGGEST things to me that I wouldn't have thought of playing before. They teach me new music. I have a few, not just pedal steels, that I could play forever without running out of new ideas.
I'm a helpless addict to beauty....
--Al Evans
_________________
2018 MSA Legend, 2018 ZumSteel Encore, 2015 Mullen G2, G&L S-500, G&L ASAT, G&L LB-100, Godin A4 Fretless, Kinscherff High Noon |
|
|
|
Johnie King
From:
Tennessee, USA
|
Posted 16 Oct 2021 7:06 am
|
|
The sun does come up in the East an Johnny Cox ::: Let's you have a tiny piece of his wealth of knowledge on pedal steels any you don't agree.
With Johnny.
Well there's still a few people with a open mind an willing too listen to their piers an hero's on pedal steel that have a open mind! |
|
|
|
Johnie King
From:
Tennessee, USA
|
Posted 16 Oct 2021 7:07 am
|
|
| John Hyland wrote: |
| Johnny Cox wrote: |
| richard burton wrote: |
| The difference in an excellent steel and a special steel is non-existent, it's who's driving it that matters |
I disagree. As a professional for over 50 years I can say that I can make any steel sound good, but there are some guitars that make me want to play. They react to my input, they fit. They feel like an extention of me. They sparkle,, they speak.Those are the special guitar Johnnie is speaking of and they are in the minority of all the guitars available. |
Johnny I agree. It is the same for all instruments, some inspire others don’t. If a good player can make any instrument sound good why are Stradivarius violins so valuable. |
|
|
|
|
Johnie King
From:
Tennessee, USA
|
Posted 16 Oct 2021 7:08 am
|
|
| Donny Hinson wrote: |
| It's not the hammer or saw that makes a good carpenter! |
|
|
|
|
Johnie King
From:
Tennessee, USA
|
Posted 16 Oct 2021 7:10 am
|
|
Love it JD
| J D Sauser wrote: |
Maurice Anderson and I once discussed "dogs" and "diamonds" in steel and Maurice told me that in the "old" MSA days, every once in a time, Bud Carter would call Maurice to final tuning "room" and just say "here is one!"...
They tried to investigate those "special" ones each time they came up. Mind you, MSA was one know for many things, CONSISTENCY of their products, probably one of the best known. They tried and tried, but never could put the finger on the secret behind those "special" ones. Likewise, he admitted, a "Dawg" would turn up... and there was no turning it into even a "normal" guitar. So wound up in the dumpster, once stripped of all useable hardware.
I think some of the technologically well equipped MFG's now can make endplates final-machined to each body's exact actual dimensions. THIS should help eliminate "Dawgs".
But every once in a time, even a most consistent builder will be surprised by one of his creations.
... J-D. |
|
|
|
|
J D Sauser
From:
Wellington, Florida
|
Posted 16 Oct 2021 2:15 pm
|
|
Thanks Johnie. Yeah, it's a cute story.
I have had several great steels and acoustic guitars.
I have had dawgs too.
One of the biggest disappointments was my Gibson Console Grand which got beaten by my Guyatone and a gorgeous see-thru red American Fender Tele with bindings and maple neck... a WET DAWG which Fender took back to address the issue of resolutely refusing to sound anywhere near like a Tele is supposed to sound and eventually replaced with an other same model which sounded just about "OK"... barely OK but nothing more and I finally sold after I played a "Mexican"-Tele at the guitar store that had it and cost 1/3 that just honked like a twang horn was meant to. One of my sons still keeps that one and refuses to give it back to me.
After I quit playing steel and got into "Gypsy" Swing I went from new "Selmer" or "Maccaferri"-type acoustic guitars into antiques because I found the had more of "that" tone than most new ones... expensive "copies" included.
I became especially fond of Favino and Busato (all France based Italian violin builders who started building French steel string acoustic guitars as guitars became the new thing in the 30's). I have a nice collection of these and other makers.
Yet, some I sold or returned to the seller because they had "nothing" going on for themselves. Same model than the "good" ones.... good condition, nothing apparently wrong visible.
One of the greatest steels I ever played was an Emmons Bolt On D10 (and I was not a big fan of PP's) a Gentleman in Orlando got from Mike Cass in 1999 or so... the FLOOR beneath it would vibrate, so tight it was... the BIGGEST sound I ever heard, and for the lack of having any other amp present, I was playing it thru a 15W Oahu Amp I got the same day at a local guitar fair.
And my neighbor steel buddy had a mid 70's push pull which was "just a steel"... nothing to call home about.
The same buddy (a fellow Forumite) still has an EMCI we bought NOS on ebay in the same time period... while the E9th was good the C6th was gutsy beyond description. It was by the way Neal Flanz who used to come to my house at the time threw the term "gutsy".
My current "new" MSA is the best sounding PSG I have ever owned myself just followed by my Excel Superb which had been custom build for Carl Dixon. I can play both without a volume pedal. For a PEDAL steel which has far inferior dynamics and sustain curves than a good non-pedal steel, this is exceptional.
It may all be in our hands and yes, Buddy may have played the heck out of any "Dawg" we ever tried to tickle some sort of life out... but instruments which are not just electronic machines (and, ooops!.. we've had chain produced amps which had their share of Dawgs and Princesses!) will sound different. And differences will produces occasional dawgs and a few Princesses.
... J-D.
_________________
__________________________________________________________
Was it JFK who said: Ask Not What TAB Can Do For You - Rather Ask Yourself "What Would B.B. King Do?"
A Little Mental Health Warning:
Tablature KILLS SKILLS.
The uses of Tablature is addictive and has been linked to reduced musical fertility.
Those who produce Tablature did never use it.
I say it humorously, but I mean it. |
|
|
|
Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
|
Posted 17 Oct 2021 9:30 am
|
|
I can't tell you how many times I've seen here on the forum some player looking for his old guitar. The comments are usually something like "That guitar sounded so special, I didn't know what I had..." But at the time, it must not have sounded so special, or they wouldn't have ever gotten rid of it (except for the few cases where it was sold due to medical bills or something). So a lot of what we hear as "special" is just our point of view at a specific time. Time changes, people change, and the sounds they hear (or think they hear) change too.
The entire guitar world (well, most of them, anyway) seems to be enamored and infatuated with the sound of early Telecasters, and they bring phenomenal prices because of it. But what did Luther Perkins use? Did you ever hear anyone rave about his tone or sound? 
(To me, his guitar always sounded like a $49 Danelectro.) |
|
|
|
Ben Lawson
From:
Brooksville Florida
|
Posted 17 Oct 2021 4:27 pm
|
|
| "Special" is within the opinion of the owner or former owner. My '76 Emmons P/P D10 (9 & 7), is special to me because it was built by Jimmie Crawford (R.I.P.), for me, in his basement shop. Yes I still have it I and use it whenever I play steel. Is mine an "excellent steel"? You better believe it! |
|
|
|
Jason Putnam
From:
Tennessee, USA
|
Posted 18 Oct 2021 7:37 am
|
|
Johnnie mine is excellent and special!
_________________
1967 Emmons Bolt On, 1995 Mullen PRP 3x5,Nashville 112, JOYO Digital Delay, Goodrich Volume Pedal, Livesteel Strings |
|
|
|
J D Sauser
From:
Wellington, Florida
|
Posted 18 Oct 2021 9:26 am
|
|
| Donny Hinson wrote: |
I can't tell you how many times I've seen here on the forum some player looking for his old guitar. The comments are usually something like "That guitar sounded so special, I didn't know what I had..." But at the time, it must not have sounded so special, or they wouldn't have ever gotten rid of it (except for the few cases where it was sold due to medical bills or something). So a lot of what we hear as "special" is just our point of view at a specific time. Time changes, people change, and the sounds they hear (or think they hear) change too.
The entire guitar world (well, most of them, anyway) seems to be enamored and infatuated with the sound of early Telecasters, and they bring phenomenal prices because of it. But what did Luther Perkins use? Did you ever hear anyone rave about his tone or sound?
(To me, his guitar always sounded like a $49 Danelectro.) |
I think that history will show us that there were some mechanical developments, like coat-hangers to pedals and more advanced mechanical features which allowed for ever more complicated setups which may have steered people away from their old guitars in newer ones. Some of the earliest non-pedal steel guitars are NOW, decades later recognized as some of the best sounding guitars ever... some Bigsby's likewise have a reputation of tone-monsters, but were "Ford Tractors" to play. The earliest maybe not most advanced Emmons PP's are coveted for the same reputation and the list and history goes on.
There is also a generation and "life" factore... I have a classic car shop and we see the attention to "newer" vintage areas sway along history as generations get into "that" age of a) being able to afford a classic car and also develop the desire, reminisce about the car they dreamed off or HAD as a teen and now miss as they see their kids putz around in today's "hot" cars.
Only 20 years ago, "nobody" was interested in cars from the 70's... NOW you see those cars pick up big in value... even 80's cars already, while the cars of generations we are loosing away slowly... like cars from the 20's thru 40's have recently lost value even thou they are getting older and fewer every day.
Cars from the 50's thru late 69's have a huge cool factor because of their looks and the implied "muscle" factor, movies, Rock & Roll etc.. even thou the were "junk" when new... we LOVE them.
It's similar with instruments... and my opinion, my antique acoustic guitars sound better than expensive replicas... I can't explain... the Stradivarius syndrome, maybe.
My Bakelite Pre-War lap steels will out horn and the 1932 Fripan out-sustain any Emmons PushPull or most modern PSG.
It it what it is... and sometimes it's just distorted memories and impressions.
... J-D.
_________________
__________________________________________________________
Was it JFK who said: Ask Not What TAB Can Do For You - Rather Ask Yourself "What Would B.B. King Do?"
A Little Mental Health Warning:
Tablature KILLS SKILLS.
The uses of Tablature is addictive and has been linked to reduced musical fertility.
Those who produce Tablature did never use it.
I say it humorously, but I mean it. |
|
|
|
b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
|
Posted 18 Oct 2021 10:20 am Re: The difference in a excellent steel an a special steel!
|
|
| Johnie King wrote: |
| Odds are old Sho~Buds an Emmons Push pulls increase your odds of finding a great Instrument. |
I disagree. The modern instruments are better, in my opinion.
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
|
|
|
Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
|
Posted 18 Oct 2021 1:26 pm
|
|
Many change guitars because they think that a new or different guitar will make them play better. Sorry, but that doesn't work. And the argument that "I needed more changes" also usually falls flat on it's face. Yeah, there's this disease (misconception, really) that makes players think that a new guitar with more pulls and strings and pedals and levers and gizmos will improve what/how they play and open up more "musical doors".
Lloyd Green kinda shot that idea in the ass decades ago. As did Buddy Charleton, as did Pete Drake, Ralph Mooney, and probably a few others. |
|
|
|
Ben Lawson
From:
Brooksville Florida
|
Posted 18 Oct 2021 5:40 pm
|
|
| Donny I think you're right. I've got the '76 P/P with 9 & 7 that I posted above, and I'll probably remove the 9th pedal and the left to right, rear, knee lever. (I hope that makes sense) As I get older it's harder to get to the more normal changes. |
|
|
|
Andrew Goulet
|
Posted 19 Oct 2021 3:40 pm
|
|
But it takes a really special musician to make a good guitar sound bad! 
_________________
Marlen S12 and a ZT Club |
|
|
|
Henry Matthews
From:
Texarkana, Ark USA
|
Posted 20 Oct 2021 7:49 am Re: The difference in a excellent steel an a special steel!
|
|
| b0b wrote: |
| Johnie King wrote: |
| Odds are old Sho~Buds an Emmons Push pulls increase your odds of finding a great Instrument. |
I disagree. The modern instruments are better, in my opinion. |
Better in what aspect? Maybe better workmanship, nicer cabinets, shinier aluminum but none of the modern instruments,in my opinion, can match the tone the old Emmons and Sho Buds have. I’ve owned over 60 guitars and could have still been playing any of them but I play a push pull and a proper set up push pull can play as good as any modern instrument.
_________________
Henry Matthews
D-10 Magnum, 8 &5, dark rose color
D-10 1974 Emmons cut tail, fat back,rosewood, 8&5
Nashville 112 amp, Fishman Loudbox Performer amp, Hilton pedal, Goodrich pedal,BJS bar, Kyser picks, Live steel Strings. No effects, doodads or stomp boxes. |
|
|
|
b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
|
Posted 20 Oct 2021 9:16 am Re: The difference in a excellent steel an a special steel!
|
|
| Johnie King wrote: |
| Odds are old Sho~Buds an Emmons Push pulls increase your odds of finding a great Instrument. |
| b0b wrote: |
| I disagree. The modern instruments are better, in my opinion. |
| Henry Matthews wrote: |
| Better in what aspect? Maybe better workmanship, nicer cabinets, shinier aluminum but none of the modern instruments,in my opinion, can match the tone the old Emmons and Sho Buds have. I’ve owned over 60 guitars and could have still been playing any of them but I play a push pull and a proper set up push pull can play as good as any modern instrument. |
Most old Sho~Buds don't stay in tune. The rack-and-barrel concept is clunky and can't be timed properly. The tone is a one trick pony, good for classic country but not much else (my opinion, obviously).
A "proper set up push pull" Emmons pp is a rarity. Yes, they sound great, but they require a bonafide expert mechanic to make any copedent change. An expert is hard to find in most localities. Forget about tuneable splits. Also, those antique push-pulls are physically harder to play than modern instruments. Good ergonomics are as important as tone, in my opinion. Today's high-end pedal steels have both. 
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
|
|
|
