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Topic: What am I missing in this E9 copedent? |
Christopher Peck
From:
Seattle
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Posted 21 Sep 2021 7:55 pm |
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I'm new to PSG, just picked it up to have fun with for my own enjoyment. I play other stuff for moola and want to have something challenging to work at musically that I don't have to do the dancing monkey thing with...
Anyways, I've got a BMI S10 3/4 set up in one end of my studio and I'm having a ton of fun shedding on it. It's been a long time since I've felt like a beginner on an instrument and it's kinda put my ego in check a bit. The thumb pick is working great, index finger half decent, but my middle finger is taking a while to learn where the end of the pick is and how to strike with it. Ring finger is the same story, it's like my right hand hasn't been finger picking guitar for the past 40 years!
But this is a question about copedents. Here's the one on my BMI:
The typical Buddy Emmons RKR is swapped over to RKL and RKR is shifting strings 1 and 6 to G natural. Which I kinda dig right now; it gives me and easy move for a minor chord. But even being a noob at PSG I know that every option taken has gains and losses. I'm curious as to what the gains are other than just a simple move to grab a minor triad and what this copedent misses that the more usual 2nd string E/6th string F# enables.
What are your thoughts, folks? The permutations are fascinating.
ed. to add: Yup, the 9th string D# is a really a D nat. When I plugged things into the excel chart I think I grabbed the autofill offering. Doh!
Last edited by Christopher Peck on 22 Sep 2021 5:58 am; edited 1 time in total |
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John Larson
From:
Pennsyltucky, USA
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Posted 21 Sep 2021 8:35 pm
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Is there no option for a half stop on the 2nd string change so you get the -D and --C#?
I assume you're coming from playing guitar?
A cool thing about the usual ++G# lever change on 1 and 7 is you can do a unison bend with the 1 and 3 strings (or 6 and 7 in the lower octave), (yours seems to be a lower on 6 which is odd).
_________________
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- Psalm 33:1-5 |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 21 Sep 2021 9:07 pm
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If you lower the 6th string to F# on your RKR, you can still get the G note by combining it with pedal 2. It's a very useful change.
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Christopher Peck
From:
Seattle
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Posted 21 Sep 2021 9:36 pm
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| John Larson wrote: |
Is there no option for a half stop on the 2nd string change so you get the -D and --C#?
I assume you're coming from playing guitar?
A cool thing about the usual ++G# lever change on 1 and 7 is you can do a unison bend with the 1 and 3 strings (or 6 and 7 in the lower octave), (yours seems to be a lower on 6 which is odd). |
Nope I don't have a half step on the RKR. It's an older BMI. You hit on the bit that struck me as unusual, that G# to G on string 6. I haven't noticed anything along those lines while poking around the interwebz.
I'm coming from trumpet/bone, guitar, mandolin, fiddle, Irish bouzouki, and other stuff. I've got a strong background in music theory, probably part of what makes PSG so fascinating; it's cool bringing the notes to the bar rather than moving fingers around on keys of frets chasing the notes. It feels to my brain like I'm pulling notes from above or below to the bar. Right now I'll get crossed up like I've got two left feet sometimes. It'll be a while before I've got the body mechanics built up in my kinesthetic memory. |
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Christopher Peck
From:
Seattle
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Posted 21 Sep 2021 9:53 pm
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| b0b wrote: |
| If you lower the 6th string to F# on your RKR, you can still get the G note by combining it with pedal 2. It's a very useful change. |
Do you mean increasing the RKR drop from a half step down to G natural to a whole step down to F#?
I'll have to think about that one for a while. The ways one little change like that impacts everything else are pretty foreign to my brain at this point.
Thanks! |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 21 Sep 2021 11:52 pm
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String 9 should be D natural
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Chris Scruggs
From:
Nashville, Tennessee, USA
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Posted 22 Sep 2021 12:07 am
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| String 9 should be a D (not D#), and the standard lower there is to drop it to C#. Yes, raising 1 and 7 from F# to G gives you the minor in an E chord, but I use it more often for getting a seventh against the A chord with the pedals down. |
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Jon Light
From:
Saugerties, NY
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Posted 22 Sep 2021 2:48 am
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And one more mention to pile on -- string 9 needs to be D natural.
Everything else is fine. |
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 22 Sep 2021 2:51 am
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I would move the 6th string change to G down to the 7th string and raise that to G similar to the first string raise to G. That's how it is usually seen on guitars that have the F# to G changes. Those changes give you a 7th chord when used with your 1st & 2nd (A&B) pedals. Adds some bluesy type licks. And, you can still get that minor chord by picking strings 4,5,7 instead of 4,5,6. Having the G on 6 screws up the nice 7th chord using strings 6,5,4,1, Although you could not play the root tone on string 6. You have the root on 3 still, but that doesn't sound as good to me as having the root tone at the bottom.
String 1 & 7 F# to G# are cool changes too, but I prefer lowering 6 to F# more than raising 7 to G#. I had both on my guitar, but never used the F# to G# on string 7 enough to keep it on there.
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, NV400, NV112 . Playing for 54 years and still counting.
Last edited by Richard Sinkler on 22 Sep 2021 3:05 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 22 Sep 2021 3:01 am
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| b0b wrote: |
| If you lower the 6th string to F# on your RKR, you can still get the G note by combining it with pedal 2. It's a very useful change. |
Works best on most guitars if you have a split tuner, either the screw in the changer type or the "extra rod" method, which I assume you don't have. Some get lucky with that "split" and get both the G and F# in tune. I, and many others I know, aren't that lucky and need split tuners. When we use the G# to F# lower and B pedal together, we first tune the G note with the A&B pedals and knee lever activated, with the lower nylon tuning nut for string 6 (the G# to F# change), but when we use just the G# to F# lever by itself, or most likely with the lever that lowers the E's to D# (gives a 5 chord in the open position on strings 1,2,4,5,6,7,8,10), the F# is slightly flat. On my guitar, I don't have split tuning screws in he changer housing, so I use an extra rod on the knee lever to raise string 6 very slight to bring the F# in tune.
And yes, string 9 should be a D.
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, NV400, NV112 . Playing for 54 years and still counting. |
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Bob Hoffnar
From:
Austin, Tx
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Posted 22 Sep 2021 5:06 am
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You have plenty there already. I personally skip the double lower on the 2nd string. The half stop lower to D is the important note to me and if I need to play the Emmons “touch my heart” intro I use a slant.
That 9th string tuned to D is important. It gives you a tritone built into the open tuning. That is the elegant heart of the E9 tuning.
Keep in mind that the pedalsteel is not an autoharp that you push buttons on to make chords.
_________________
Bob |
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Christopher Peck
From:
Seattle
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Posted 22 Sep 2021 6:08 am
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| I'm kinda wondering why someone would go for the two G naturals on the 1st and 6th strings. Like 'what were they going for?' wise. Maybe they were chasing the nearly complete chromatic scale tones on the lower half of the neck without making making any consecutive double moves on any one pedal or knee? |
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Pete Burak
From:
Portland, OR USA
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Posted 22 Sep 2021 7:21 am
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| Christopher Peck wrote: |
| I'm kinda wondering why someone would go for the two G naturals on the 1st and 6th strings. Like 'what were they going for?' wise. Maybe they were chasing the nearly complete chromatic scale tones on the lower half of the neck without making making any consecutive double moves on any one pedal or knee? |
You could easily re-rod string-1 to lower both G#'s to G on RKR.
That basically changes any open chord to a minor. Like changing an open E to Em. My guess would be that is what the G's were used for. |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 22 Sep 2021 7:54 am
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| Pete Burak wrote: |
| Christopher Peck wrote: |
| I'm kinda wondering why someone would go for the two G naturals on the 1st and 6th strings. Like 'what were they going for?' wise. Maybe they were chasing the nearly complete chromatic scale tones on the lower half of the neck without making making any consecutive double moves on any one pedal or knee? |
You could easily re-rod string-1 to lower both G#'s to G on RKR.
That basically changes any open chord to a minor. Like changing an open E to Em. My guess would be that is what the G's were used for. |
That makes MUCH more sense to me than raising 1 and lowering 6. It gets rid of that major 3rd clinker note on string 3 when you’re going for an Em chord.
As Richard Sinkler pointed out, raising 1 and 7 to G works well also. Plus, you can step on Pedal B to raise the G# clinker on 6 and 3 to A, and gain a minor pentatonic scale out of the deal. |
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Paul Sutherland
From:
Placerville, California
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Posted 22 Sep 2021 8:05 am
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duplicate deleted
_________________
It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing.
Last edited by Paul Sutherland on 22 Sep 2021 8:26 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Paul Sutherland
From:
Placerville, California
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Posted 22 Sep 2021 8:07 am
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I wouldn't touch any of the pedals or levers, except for possibly RKR. If you want to experiment that's where your focus should be. One change that is common that has not been mentioned is lowering 5 & 10 a half tone. It has it's uses. It's often on the left knee as a vertical, but it doesn't have to be.
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It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing. |
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Earnest Bovine
From:
Los Angeles CA USA
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Posted 22 Sep 2021 8:12 am
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| Pete Burak wrote: |
lower both G#'s to G on RKR.
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Then you would have my setup, almost exactly. I like it. But that is just me. |
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Christopher Peck
From:
Seattle
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Posted 22 Sep 2021 9:33 am
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| This is pretty just me pondering the reasons why it's the way it is. I don't plan on changing anything, unless way down the road it gets in my way. And if that happens it's a long way off. |
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Pete Burak
From:
Portland, OR USA
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Posted 22 Sep 2021 10:45 am
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On my Push-Pull I raise both F#'s to G.
I use the string-1 F# to G for a cool ascending/descending Buddy Cage style lick.
It starts and ends on string-4-E.
You pick string-4 and raise it to F# with the C-pedal.
Then pick string-1 and raise it to G (keep your RKR lever engaged).
Then pick string-3 G# (that completes the ascending part).
Then pick string-1 and release the G to F# (also release the C pedal).
Then pick string-4-E.
I use it on the bridge solo of Lonesome LA Cowboy, and also works good on the Bridge of Silver Wings and other 1-4-5 stuff like that.
If you don't raise string-1 to F# you can easily do a behind the bar pull on string-1 to raise it a half step. |
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 22 Sep 2021 12:13 pm
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I also raise both F#s to G on my vertical. Have for most all 51 years of my career. I also raise string 1 to G# on RKR along with raising 2 to E and lowering your to F#. I use the F# to G changes a lot.
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, NV400, NV112 . Playing for 54 years and still counting. |
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Cappone dAngelo
From:
Vancouver, BC, Canada
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Posted 22 Sep 2021 3:06 pm Re: What am I missing in this E9 copedent?
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| Christopher Peck wrote: |
I'm new to PSG, just picked it up to have fun with for my own enjoyment. I play other stuff for moola and want to have something challenging to work at musically that I don't have to do the dancing monkey thing with...
Anyways, I've got a BMI S10 3/4 set up in one end of my studio and I'm having a ton of fun shedding on it. It's been a long time since I've felt like a beginner on an instrument and it's kinda put my ego in check a bit. The thumb pick is working great, index finger half decent, but my middle finger is taking a while to learn where the end of the pick is and how to strike with it. Ring finger is the same story, it's like my right hand hasn't been finger picking guitar for the past 40 years!
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Sounds like we have a similar experience - both in our reason for learning PSG and re feeling like a beginner for the first time in a long time! For reference, I've played guitar for several decades, studied and gigged on saxophone, and have a background in theory and composition (B.Mus). I'm not a country player - on any instrument - and although I'm digging into it a bit now my primary goals on PSG are mostly outside country music and my copedent is strongly informed by the voice leading/chord progressions/etc. to which I gravitate. So, 6 months into learning PSG, this is my copedent:
It's strongly influenced by Paul Franklin (and when I got my PSG, it was almost exactly Paul's setup from before he changed LKV to the big G->E drop). I've tweaked it to reflect Paul's own recommendations - including moving the Franklin pedal to P0 (instead of on the right of Pedal C where he has it) and splitting the B->A and G#->F# changes which adds versatility. It ends up quite close to Tommy White's copedent (https://b0b.com/wp/copedents/famous-players/#E9tw) but with the changes on different pedals/knees.
I don't have rods to do it now, but I'm considering adding the F#->G (or F#-G#?) string 7 change on LKR or RKR. I may add a B->Bb change, primarily to do the subdominant (4) chord change to minor with pedals A and B down, but I'd need to either sacrifice the current LKV change - which I love, as it opens up some great voice-leading options since string 6 can go from F# to B with just the changers - or add another knee lever, and in any event I can get the same result by half-pedalling Pedal A.
P4 is kind of my 'swing' pedal - right now I have it lowering string 6 a half step, but it's a redundant change (I can do the same on LKR), so I will likely switch that to something else at some point (suggestions welcome!).
Hope this is useful/inspiring.
Cheers,
C |
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Gary Shepherd
From:
Fox, Oklahoma, USA
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Posted 22 Sep 2021 3:47 pm
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I would miss B to Bb on a vertical lever.
_________________
Gary Shepherd
Carter D-10 & Peavey Nashville 1000
www.16tracks.com |
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Tommy Mc
From:
Middlesex VT
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Posted 22 Sep 2021 4:38 pm
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String 9 should be D→C#. Many players use this as a "feel-stop" so that string 2 can be lowered a full step. Ideally, the 9th string starts to engage just as the 2nd string gets to D, and you can "feel" the extra tension in the lever. Some people like this, others have a hard time feeling it and prefer to have one change or the other.
My guitar came from the factory as a 3x4, pretty close to how yours is set up. One difference was that the change you have on RKR had the G on string 1, but not on string 6. Instead, it lowered the B→Bb on the 5th string. (I later added a vertical lever for B→Bb, and put the RKR just like yours.
There's a lot of discussion over what's more useful on string 1...G or G#. I have it set to G, and use a bar slant along with the lever when I want G#. Takes a little practice, but works.
So if I had your guitar, I'd set up the feel-stop on strings 2 and 9 as described above. I'd *might* set RKR so it lowered string 5 to Bb and raised string 1 to G. But honestly, I rarely use the Bb change. Even if you do nothing, there's a LOT of music to be made with the changes you have there. |
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Roger Rettig
From:
Naples, FL
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Posted 23 Sep 2021 6:29 am
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In addition to others' observations, I'd add that I, too, would really miss lowering my Bs to A#.
For me it's on RKL but that's because I consider it a fundamental change and, being a bit uncomfortable with that pesky vertical-knee, I've assigned a less-important pull to my LKV. (That's where I raise 1,2 & 7 - lots of possibilities with that one but less vital than lowering those Bs!)
_________________
Roger Rettig - Emmons D10s, Quilter TT-12, B-bender Teles and old Martins.
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 23 Sep 2021 7:20 am
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| Gary Shepherd wrote: |
| I would miss B to Bb on a vertical lever. |
Didn't use it enough to waste (for my playing) a knee lever on it. I do lower my B's to Bb on pedal 4, next to my A pedal (I'm a Day player). Don't really use it to make A&B pedal major chord into a minor, the same minor is is available 1 fret up with the lever that lowers E to D#. I use it mainly to get the 2(9) chord similar to the lowering of the G string on C6 pedal 5.
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, NV400, NV112 . Playing for 54 years and still counting. |
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