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Topic: D13th S12 |
Johnny Cox
From:
Williamsom WVA, raised in Nashville TN, Lives in Hallettsville Texas
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Posted 12 Sep 2021 12:43 pm |
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| Chris Templeton wrote: |
Studying the tuning now.
The F#- G# change on the top string, E9, has been somewhat popular in the last 30 years, if not more.
I think Paul Franklin was the first to use it.
I don't see it on your copedent.
Any thoughts on it. String breakage? The C pedal gives a nice unison with the F#, but F#-G# has quality of sound that I like. |
It's there, on my guitar it's LKLI. Paul made it prominent but not the first to do it.
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Johnny "Dumplin" Cox
"YANKIN' STRINGS & STOMPIN' PEDALS" since 1967. |
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Chris Templeton
From:
The Green Mountain State
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Johnny Cox
From:
Williamsom WVA, raised in Nashville TN, Lives in Hallettsville Texas
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Posted 12 Sep 2021 5:37 pm
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| Chris Templeton wrote: |
Thanks guys.
Johnny, could you tell me the weight of the triple neck pedal you had? I'm guessing 120 pounds in the case. |
I honestly don't remember number but it was in split cases. It seems that the guitar in its case was about the same as a D10 in a single case.
_________________
Johnny "Dumplin" Cox
"YANKIN' STRINGS & STOMPIN' PEDALS" since 1967. |
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Chris Templeton
From:
The Green Mountain State
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Chris Scruggs
From:
Nashville, Tennessee, USA
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Posted 13 Sep 2021 7:46 am
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| Johnny, what gauges are you using for D13? |
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Dustin Rhodes
From:
Owasso OK
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Johnny Cox
From:
Williamsom WVA, raised in Nashville TN, Lives in Hallettsville Texas
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Posted 13 Sep 2021 2:50 pm
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These are the gauges b0b and I came up with
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Johnny "Dumplin" Cox
"YANKIN' STRINGS & STOMPIN' PEDALS" since 1967. |
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Johnny Cox
From:
Williamsom WVA, raised in Nashville TN, Lives in Hallettsville Texas
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Posted 14 Sep 2021 1:05 pm
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 So doing some thinking about the 1st string raise. As on E9th I raise my 1st (E or 2 to 3 of chord) a whole tone. And on my C6th I lowered my 2nd string (E or 3 to 2 of chord) a whole tone. I got that from Maurice Anderson and use it a lot. On my D13th I'm thinking of lowering the 3rd string a whole tone to accomplish both.
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Johnny "Dumplin" Cox
"YANKIN' STRINGS & STOMPIN' PEDALS" since 1967. |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 14 Sep 2021 9:40 pm
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Johnny came up with the idea of a chart showing how the intervals line up with the standard E9th and C6th tunings. The RKR changes strings 10 and 11 to match the C6th low A and F intervals. Here's my graphic interpretation of his idea:
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-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Johnny Cox
From:
Williamsom WVA, raised in Nashville TN, Lives in Hallettsville Texas
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Posted 14 Sep 2021 10:03 pm
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| b0b wrote: |
| Johnny came up with the idea of a chart showing how the intervals line up with the standard E9th and C6th tunings. The RKR changes strings 10 and 11 to match the C6th low A and F intervals. Here's my graphic interpretation of his idea: |
Thanks b0b, it just made sense to look at it in intervals as opposed to tunings. My tuning puts all those intervals in the same spot for both 12 string E9th and C6th. There are lots of players with such better musical minds than me, I still don't understand why this hasn't been done before.
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Johnny "Dumplin" Cox
"YANKIN' STRINGS & STOMPIN' PEDALS" since 1967. |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 14 Sep 2021 10:17 pm
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| Johnny Cox wrote: |
| So doing some thinking about the 1st string raise. As on E9th I raise my 1st (E or 2 to 3 of chord) a whole tone. And on my C6th I lowered my 2nd string (E or 3 to 2 of chord) a whole tone. I got that from Maurice Anderson and use it a lot. On my D13th I'm thinking of lowering the 3rd string a whole tone to accomplish both. |
I'd stick with the 1st string raise. The 3rd string's tuning is very stable because it only raises. There's bound to be a bit of hysteresis if you lower it a full step.
| Chris Scruggs wrote: |
| Johnny, what gauges are you using for D13? |
E .014
C# .017
F# .013
D .015
B .018
A .020p
F# .026w
E .030
D .034
C .040
A .046
D .060
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Johnny Cox
From:
Williamsom WVA, raised in Nashville TN, Lives in Hallettsville Texas
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Posted 15 Sep 2021 1:07 pm
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I thought I would put these variations of D13th setups here for comparison.
First is a standard Emmons 8x5 pedal setup. One additional note, Buddy Emmons did not raise his first string only the second.
Next is what I currently have on my MSA 8X6
The following are the two possibilities for my new guitar, either 7x6 or 6x6
As you can see this tuning is very adaptable to different pedal configurations.
_________________
Johnny "Dumplin" Cox
"YANKIN' STRINGS & STOMPIN' PEDALS" since 1967.
Last edited by Johnny Cox on 15 Sep 2021 5:45 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Darren Mortillaro
From:
Nevada, USA
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Posted 15 Sep 2021 4:38 pm
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Hi Johnny,
I'm having a new MSA S12 put together. Of these options what would you recommend for a beginner?
I should also say that I really don't want to change copedants after deciding on one, as I don't want to be constantly re-learning how to play the instrument. Regularly changing and experimenting with different tunings or setups will only confuse me further, and slow down my progress. Which would you say is the best setup for a beginner to learn and to stick with permanently?
Last edited by Darren Mortillaro on 15 Sep 2021 5:13 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Johnny Cox
From:
Williamsom WVA, raised in Nashville TN, Lives in Hallettsville Texas
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Posted 15 Sep 2021 4:54 pm
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| Darren Mortillaro wrote: |
Hi Johnny,
I'm having a new MSA S12 put together. Of these options what would you recommend for a beginner?
| Johnny Cox wrote: |
I thought I would put these variations of D13th setups here for comparison.
First is a standard Emmons 8x5 pedal setup
Next is what I currently have on my MSA 8X6
The following are the two possibilities for my new guitar, either 7x6 or 6x6
As you can see this tuning is very adaptable to different pedal configurations. |
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Have you played very long and what setup do you currently have?
_________________
Johnny "Dumplin" Cox
"YANKIN' STRINGS & STOMPIN' PEDALS" since 1967. |
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Darren Mortillaro
From:
Nevada, USA
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Posted 15 Sep 2021 4:58 pm
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Hi Johnny,
I have a S-10 E9, 3 pedal 3 lever BMI. Been playing (or messing around with PSG) for about 10-15 years, but am still a beginner.
As mentioned above, I really don't want to change copedants after deciding on a new "universal" one, as I don't want to be constantly re-learning how to play the instrument. Regularly changing and experimenting with different tunings or setups will only confuse me further, and slow down my progress. Which would you say is the best setup for a beginner to learn and to stick with permanently?
I have a solid background in music theory, and am more a jazz guitar guy than anything. Pedal steel is something I am not as familiar with. |
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Johnny Cox
From:
Williamsom WVA, raised in Nashville TN, Lives in Hallettsville Texas
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Posted 15 Sep 2021 5:42 pm
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| Darren Mortillaro wrote: |
Hi Johnny,
I have a S-10 E9, 3 pedal 3 lever BMI. Been playing (or messing around with PSG) for about 10-15 years, but am still a beginner.
As mentioned above, I really don't want to change copedants after deciding on a new "universal" one, as I don't want to be constantly re-learning how to play the instrument. Regularly changing and experimenting with different tunings or setups will only confuse me further, and slow down my progress. Which would you say is the best setup for a beginner to learn and to stick with permanently?
I have a solid background in music theory, and am more a jazz guitar guy than anything. Pedal steel is something I am not as familiar with. |
Then I suggest the standard Emmons setup.
_________________
Johnny "Dumplin" Cox
"YANKIN' STRINGS & STOMPIN' PEDALS" since 1967. |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 15 Sep 2021 6:13 pm
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Johnny, I think there are two errors on your "Emmons" chart, both on the right knee, 2nd string. Shouldn't they be half-step, not full-step changes (D and C, respectively)?
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Mike Spaeth
From:
Springdale, Arkansas
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Posted 15 Sep 2021 6:28 pm D13
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I am curious about the open B on the 5th string while pulling string 6 to a B again.
How is this used in an actual playing environment? |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 28 Sep 2021 9:29 am Re: D13
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| Mike Spaeth wrote: |
I am curious about the open B on the 5th string while pulling string 6 to a B again.
How is this used in an actual playing environment? |
With Pedals 1-2-3 in this copedent being just like ABC in E9 (except they pull strings 4-6-7 here), the two B’s in Pedals Down could be used just like any other unison, bending 6 into 5 and releasing it out. Double-footing with Pedal 7 looks like fun too, rocking off Pedal 1 for a IV-V7 change.
I don’t have this tuning, but the magic in that open B string looks to me like it is in the pedals beyond 1-2-3. Plus, your VI chord is only a LKL away, no A pedal. |
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Johnny Cox
From:
Williamsom WVA, raised in Nashville TN, Lives in Hallettsville Texas
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Posted 29 Sep 2021 9:27 am
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| b0b wrote: |
Johnny, I think there are two errors on your "Emmons" chart, both on the right knee, 2nd string. Shouldn't they be half-step, not full-step changes (D and C, respectively)?
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b0b, you are correct on the RKL but it's a whole tone lower with 1/2 stop on RKR.
_________________
Johnny "Dumplin" Cox
"YANKIN' STRINGS & STOMPIN' PEDALS" since 1967. |
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Johnny Cox
From:
Williamsom WVA, raised in Nashville TN, Lives in Hallettsville Texas
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Posted 29 Sep 2021 9:28 am Re: D13
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| Fred Treece wrote: |
| Mike Spaeth wrote: |
I am curious about the open B on the 5th string while pulling string 6 to a B again.
How is this used in an actual playing environment? |
With Pedals 1-2-3 in this copedent being just like ABC in E9 (except they pull strings 4-6-7 here), the two B’s in Pedals Down could be used just like any other unison, bending 6 into 5 and releasing it out. Double-footing with Pedal 7 looks like fun too, rocking off Pedal 1 for a IV-V7 change.
I don’t have this tuning, but the magic in that open B string looks to me like it is in the pedals beyond 1-2-3. Plus, your VI chord is only a LKL away, no A pedal. |
Fred, the open B has a multitude of uses. The main one for me is the 6th note interval that is the key to playing the C6th stuff in the upper strings.
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Johnny "Dumplin" Cox
"YANKIN' STRINGS & STOMPIN' PEDALS" since 1967. |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 29 Sep 2021 9:40 am Re: D13
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| Johnny Cox wrote: |
| Fred, the open B has a multitude of uses. The main one for me is the 6th note interval that is the key to playing the C6th stuff in the upper strings. |
I have a lever that raises B to C, similar to the C6th A to Bb. I use it a lot. Of course, you have those notes on the second string, but I find them more convenient for some phrasings in the middle of the chord. It's just what I'm used to.
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 29 Sep 2021 12:52 pm
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| I think Mike Spaeth meant, what do you do with open string 5 when string 6 is raised a whole step, meaning 5&6 are in unison, both B’s. That’s really all I was attempting to address. But yeah, I can see the open B is the launch pad into that whole D6/13 tuning universe. |
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Johnny Cox
From:
Williamsom WVA, raised in Nashville TN, Lives in Hallettsville Texas
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Posted 29 Sep 2021 6:54 pm
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| Fred Treece wrote: |
| I think Mike Spaeth meant, what do you do with open string 5 when string 6 is raised a whole step, meaning 5&6 are in unison, both B’s. That’s really all I was attempting to address. But yeah, I can see the open B is the launch pad into that whole D6/13 tuning universe. |
Sometimes play the unison. It doesn't get in my way of anything as far as sympathetic ring.
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Johnny "Dumplin" Cox
"YANKIN' STRINGS & STOMPIN' PEDALS" since 1967. |
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Darren Mortillaro
From:
Nevada, USA
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Posted 10 Oct 2021 3:14 pm
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Hello Johnny and Bob,
Could you help proof-read this chart, and make sure I don't have any errors before I send it to MSA?
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