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Topic: Why were odd copedents so common with west coast players? |
Dustin Rhodes
From:
Owasso OK
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Posted 10 Aug 2021 8:21 am |
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As opposed to the Nashville guys?
Red Rhodes Eb6 & some sort of diatonic
Sneakey Pete Kleinow - 8 string B6
Mooney - E9...kinda
Al Perkins - 8 string E7
Were there many non-standard tunings/copedent in Nashville that I'm just ignorant to? |
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Dave Zirbel
From:
Sebastopol, CA USA
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Posted 10 Aug 2021 8:46 am
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Al Perkins was originally from Texas and had E7 on his double 8 string Fender. After moving to California and eventually bought an 11 string ZB and switched to a more standard E9 tuning, sometime in the early '70's.
As far as Mooney, I think he was the first one to put the high G#-A pull on the E tuning, and was copied by almost everyone. Same with the E to F# pull on a separate pedal....I think  He was one of the innovators of modern E9 pedal steel but stayed with his tuning while it continued to evolve.
Most of the players you mentioned come from the days before the E9 tuning was standardized and it was still evolving. Lots of experimenting was happening.
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Dave Zirbel-
Sierra S-10 (Built by Ross Shafer),ZB, Fender 400 guitars, various tube and SS amps |
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Dom Franco
From:
Beaverton, OR, 97007
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Posted 10 Aug 2021 9:03 am
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Pedal steel guitar was still evolving in the 1960's and 1970's. In fact as a relatively "new" instrument it still is changing even to this day.
As opposed to the Violin 1000's of years old the standard guitar 100's of years old, Zithers, Harps, Banj*'s etc. Stringed instruments have evolved and tunings have been somewhat standardized over time.
When I took lessons in the early 60's my Hawaiian guitar teachers were pushing my Dad to buy me a brand new Fender Pedal Guitar! (8 strings WOW) Soon it was 10 strings, 12 strings, even 14 strings...
When I finally bought my 1st pedal steel (USED) it was set up with the Jimmy Day pedal arrangement "C B A" as opposed to ABC floor pedals, and the knee lever only pulled one string... I didn't know any better and by the time I discovered that most steel players were set up differently, it was too hard for me to change copedents and learn all over...
I don't think we have seen the last of PEDAL STEEL EVOLUTION.... Hardware, Electronics and Copedents.
Dom 
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https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCYG9cvwCPKuXpGofziPNieA/feed?activity_view=3 |
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Dustin Rhodes
From:
Owasso OK
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Posted 10 Aug 2021 9:05 am
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| Dave Zirbel wrote: |
Al Perkins was originally from Texas and had E7 on his double 8 string Fender. After moving to California and eventually bought an 11 string ZB and switched to a more standard E9 tuning, sometime in the early '70's.
As far as Mooney, I think he was the first one to put the high G#-A pull on the E tuning, and was copied by almost everyone. Same with the E to F# pull on a separate pedal....I think He was one of the innovators of modern E9 pedal steel but stayed with his tuning while it continued to evolve.
Most of the players you mentioned come from the days before the E9 tuning was standardized and it was still evolving. Lots of experimenting was happening. |
Most of the legendary Nashville pickers predated E9 as well but it just seemed like the west coast players were more apt to stick with their own versions of things. |
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Dave Zirbel
From:
Sebastopol, CA USA
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Posted 10 Aug 2021 9:16 am
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| Quote: |
| Most of the legendary Nashville pickers predated E9 as well but it just seemed like the west coast players were more apt to stick with their own versions of things. |
Don't forget Ernie Hagar, who played "reverse" E9, which is really the A6 open tuning with pedals that lower strings to get the E9, like Sonny Curtis did.
I guess Speedy West, even though originally from Oklahoma never went standard E9.
And Jerry Byrd and Kayton Roberts both stayed with no pedals..
..but I think a majority of the west coast players eventually went with the more standard tunings...
Even at 59 yrs old I still fantasize about finding my own unique tuning..
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Dave Zirbel-
Sierra S-10 (Built by Ross Shafer),ZB, Fender 400 guitars, various tube and SS amps |
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Dustin Rhodes
From:
Owasso OK
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Posted 10 Aug 2021 9:55 am
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| Tom Morrell's in the same category with Kayton and Byrd except I believe he went pedal and then went back. And listening to old convention vids of him on stage with pedallers his tone absolutely stands out to me. |
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Tim Whitlock
From:
Colorado, USA
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Posted 12 Aug 2021 8:51 am Re: Why were odd copedents so common with west coast...
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| Dustin Rhodes wrote: |
As opposed to the Nashville guys?
Red Rhodes Eb6 & some sort of diatonic
Sneakey Pete Kleinow - 8 string B6
Mooney - E9...kinda
Al Perkins - 8 string E7
Were there many non-standard tunings/copedent in Nashville that I'm just ignorant to? |
I think it might have a lot to do with the instruments that were available. I note that the players you cited all played the old Fender pedal steels. When Fender, based in California, introduced the 1000 in 1957, the factory tunings were E7 and A6 and were more designed for western swing and pop. I believe either Alvino Ray or Herb Remington (I forget which) was the main design consultant and suggested those tunings. The 1000 seteup was easy to change, which led to a lot of experimentation and players coming up with unique copedants to play a more modern style of music.
By the mid-60s Sho-Bud began to eclipse Fender as the dominant pedal steel brand and the majority of players seemed content to copy the Emmons copedant. Maybe Sho-Buds didn't catch on as quickly out west because they were built in Nashville and more quickly adopted by the players there. |
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John Hyland
From:
South Australia
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Posted 8 Sep 2021 9:36 pm
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| Country Rock. not really noted for the Nashville style - I think those players were looking for their own styles to fit with the rest of the band. I think you will also find bluegrass players are different from one side of the country to the other. |
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Larry Petree
From:
Bakersfield. Ca. USA
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Posted 9 Sep 2021 11:47 am New Emmons steels being built again
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Is this true, that they are being built again. If this is true, I am interested in buying one. Please reply.
Larry Petree |
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Johnny Cox
From:
Williamsom WVA, raised in Nashville TN, Lives in Hallettsville Texas
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Posted 9 Sep 2021 1:42 pm
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Until 1963 there was no E9th tuning. Until then the Nashville guys were using either straight E or E6th & C6. Ralph mooney was the 1st guy to use the high G# string on the E tuning. Buddy Emmons added the F# & Eb first on the 9th and 10th strings then moved them to 1st and 2nd. The 1st example Can be found on Ray Price's 1963 recording of You Took Her Off My Hands. Some of the West Coast guys just found a tuning and stuck with it.
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Johnny "Dumplin" Cox
"YANKIN' STRINGS & STOMPIN' PEDALS" since 1967. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 9 Sep 2021 3:25 pm
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| I think the "West Coasters" mostly started with Fender steels, and the Fender literature featured an A6th tuning which concentrated more on chords, and not moving changes. The Nashville guys based their main (read: "commercial") tuning off the E major, credit Bud Isaacs moving change for that. But the NV guys kept the C6th neck, which was most a Jerry Byrd development, and heard on many Hank Sr. records. That's what most of those guys started out on before the E9th came about. |
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Johnny Cox
From:
Williamsom WVA, raised in Nashville TN, Lives in Hallettsville Texas
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Posted 9 Sep 2021 6:47 pm
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| Donny Hinson wrote: |
| I think the "West Coasters" mostly started with Fender steels, and the Fender literature featured an A6th tuning which concentrated more on chords, and not moving changes. The Nashville guys based their main (read: "commercial") tuning off the E major, credit Bud Isaacs moving change for that. But the NV guys kept the C6th neck, which was most a Jerry Byrd development, and heard on many Hank Sr. records. That's what most of those guys started out on before the E9th came about. |
Those Hank Sr. records were Don Helms on E6th.
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Johnny "Dumplin" Cox
"YANKIN' STRINGS & STOMPIN' PEDALS" since 1967. |
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