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Topic: Idea for western swing E 13th tuning sounds on pedal C6… |
Chris Scruggs
From:
Nashville, Tennessee, USA
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Posted 30 Jul 2021 8:25 am |
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As some of you know, I come from mostly a non-pedal background. As the years pass, I find myself playing more and more pedals. There is an attitude that non-pedal is limited and pedals are limitless. In my experience, this is not true. There are certainly trade offs with each.
For years I have been trying to find ways to have a pedal setup where I don’t lose as much of what I like about playing my non-pedal tunings. The biggest issue for me is not having a good western swing E13 tuning type sound.
Here is my concept for reclaiming the old E13 sound, on pedal C6. You’ll notice nothing is lost from the standard five C6 pedals, some things are just rearranged. My idea centers around “splitting†pedal seven into two pedals (much as how Buddy and Jimmy “split†the Isaacs pedal for E9 back in the ‘50s).
Basically, I’m thinking if swapping the placements of 4 and 8, and then tuning 7 to only move the third string from C string to D. If you want the pedal 7 sound, press 7 and 8 together. If you need the pedal 7 sound plus another pedal, double foot it. This also makes the pedal 4 sound of raising the As to B less redundant and theoretically more useful (as many players don’t use 4 at all), as it would be used in conjunction with the neighboring C to D pedal.
I also like the idea of having the 8th pedal movements placed on 4 because I use that change a lot, not for stock “boo wah†licks but more for Jerry Byrd style C6/A7 type voicings which center heavily on the seventh string being tuned to C#, for both A7 voicings and single note runs.
But the main purpose… what is gained from this for “E13†style playing? My proposed pedal 6 and 7, when played together, with give the intervals of Noel Boggs’ E13 tuning on strings 2-9, but tuned half a step sharp to F13. It’s not my favorite version of an E13 type tuning, but it would certainly work for what I need for this style. If you like the old western swing type E13 style playing, this is possibly a good way to achieve that, without losing any of the standard C6 pedal voicings.
……………..4…….5……..6……..7…….8
D or G
E…………………………….F
C……………………………………..D
A……………………………………………..B
G………………….F#
E…………………………….D#
C…………..C#
A……………………………………………..B
F……………E……F#
C…………..A……D
Commercially speaking, I think steel players have way more freedom to mess with their C6 pedals anyways, as we know most of our employability is connected to E9 work. My thought here is, if you can find alternate C6 changes that still give you what you need to play “Nightlife,†why not reorganize the pedals on C6 beyond that to accomplish what you as a player personally require?
You could also move the 5 and 6 changes over one space and do it this way, if you really wanting to keep pedal 8 on its traditional position:
……………4……5……6…….7……8
D or G
E…………………F
C……………………….D
A……………………………....B
G………….F#
E………………...D#
C………..………………………..…C#
A…………………………..…..B
F………..…F#……………………..E
C…………..D………………….…..A
I spoke about this specific concept with Paul F. a few years back and he said the concept was sound. Of course if you are really locked into the standard C6 pedal set-up, there would be a muscle memory related learning curve that might not be worth it for you personally, but still… what are your thoughts? I seldom play C6 with pedals (I mostly play straight C6) so I think I’m still have a pretty clean slate as far as my pedals for the tuning are concerned.
Give it a look and share your impressions, please!
~Chris Scruggs~ |
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Ricky Davis
From:
Bertram, Texas USA
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Posted 30 Jul 2021 8:38 am
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Chris; I'm so proud of you, you are doing the same musical imagery as Big Jim Murphy did. His C6 was always set up the way he sees it fitting the music and/or the way he wanted it to be played/setup.
Here is how I would set up Murph's Steels for him and just look how he wanted certain normal pedals swapped around; just like YOU ARE SEEING musically....
YOU GO MY BROTHER>
(I know its 7ped 5knee C6 set up; but look at the ideas)
Ricky
_________________
Ricky Davis
Email Ricky: sshawaiian2362@gmail.com |
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Chris Scruggs
From:
Nashville, Tennessee, USA
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Posted 30 Jul 2021 8:43 am
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| Very cool, Ricky! He could get this change with 6 and LKR! As a mostly non pedal player, pedal consolidation is a fetishized priority to me, so that’s why I’m trying to find a solution that splits 7 and combines the split with 4, so there’s no extra pedals or mechanical elements added, butting looks like he was onto the same idea! |
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Bob Watson
From:
Champaign, Illinois, U.S.
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Posted 30 Jul 2021 2:02 pm
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| Ricky, thanks for posting Murph's copedent. I used to sit in on his steels back in the old Gabe's days and I remember the C6 being different. He would just describe it as being backwards. I had heard of other players doing this before. When playing his steel, I would just look for pedals 5 and 6 and not worry about using anything else. Chris, your thinking on this is spot on. E9 has evolved into a lot of standard pedal ideas that vary only in their position on the guitar, whereas C6 seems to still be in the wild west stage where people are still experimenting a lot with various changes, customizing them to the musical ideas that they are hearing in their head. I am curious, what are the intervals of your favorite 8 string E13 tuning? |
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Ricky Davis
From:
Bertram, Texas USA
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Posted 30 Jul 2021 2:25 pm
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Yeah Chris; I loved playing Murph's C6; as like you said, he split's up some of those important changes and gives you the possibility to play MORE OPTIONS...
Thanks Bob; I sure miss Murph, here's a pic, below, of me playing one of his Sho~Bud's right when he moved to Texas>
Here's my 8-string E13...>
G#
E
C#
B
G#
F#
E
D
Ricky
playing Murph's Dick Miller finished Sho~Bud Pro~II Custom
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Ricky Davis
Email Ricky: sshawaiian2362@gmail.com |
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Johnny Cox
From:
Williamsom WVA, raised in Nashville TN, Lives in Hallettsville Texas
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Posted 30 Jul 2021 2:44 pm
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This is my D13th tuning which I play everything from both E9th, E13th and C6th as I has on my triple neck Zumsteel.
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Johnny "Dumplin" Cox
"YANKIN' STRINGS & STOMPIN' PEDALS" since 1967. |
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Bob Watson
From:
Champaign, Illinois, U.S.
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Posted 30 Jul 2021 8:19 pm
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| Ricky, thanks for posting those pictures of you playing Murph's Sho Bud. Those are great pictures and they brought back some great memories and put a big smile on my face. Your E13 tuning looks really cool, and being a pedal steel player it looks like it would be easy to adapt to. Johnny, your D13 tuning looks really interesting. It's cool that you have been adding to it. I recall seeing your triple neck Zum at a gig that you were playing with the Time Jumpers at the Station Inn and it sounded great. I have heard some Universal players say that they just look at it as one big tuning and think of it as playing inside and outside, which makes a lot of sense. The D13 seems to be the tuning of the future. |
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Paul Strojan
From:
California, USA
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Posted 30 Jul 2021 9:32 pm
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| Chris, what if you had Johnny Cox’s 13th tuning on the front neck of your guitar then you would have all the changes that you would need for commercial music. Then you would have the freedom to set up your back neck with a setup like a Herb Remington, Speedy West, or Bud Isaacs to play Western Swing. |
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Chris Scruggs
From:
Nashville, Tennessee, USA
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Posted 31 Jul 2021 8:56 am
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On my double neck Fender, I use Kayton Robert’s F13 tuning. Notice the middle two strings are flipped to accommodate particular grips and slants from the old Hawaiian C#min tuning.
F
D
A
F
G
Ed
C
F
Translated down to E13, it would be:
E
C#
G#
E
F#
D
B
E
This is pretty similar to E9 with the A peak pressed, but the lower end goes lower and is a little different.
I also like the Leon McAuliffe E13, but it’s sound strongly evokes the 40s/50s era (which is perfect in the right setting) and the F13 I use sounds a little more timeless, style wise.
The main thing for me is to have a root note on the top and bottom of the tuning, a sixth on the string below the high root, a ninth in the middle, and a seventh below the ninth. All of this is necessary for the proper “crash bar†sound. Between E9 with the A pedal down ans this set up for C6 with the 7th pedal split, I believe I can get all the E13 style sounds I’d want. |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 31 Jul 2021 1:17 pm
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Tuning up a step to D6th, pedal 5 + knee gives me E13th:
E
F#
C# knee
B
G# p5
F#
D
B
G# p5
E p5
It’s one of the things I love about D6th. P5 + P7 is even more authentic but it’s a two footer.
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-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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John Poston
From:
Albuquerque, NM, USA
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Posted 2 Aug 2021 2:56 pm
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b0b's right, P5 + P7 will give you similar intervals with probably different tone due to string gauge.
I think P6 basically gives you a Mcauliffe E13 or close to it in F on open fret |
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Dustin Rhodes
From:
Owasso OK
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Posted 2 Aug 2021 6:21 pm
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Chris please pass on 3 words for us to Brother Marty. DOUBLE LIVE ALBUM.
On topic this reminds me that I've been intrigued lately at the intervals in Red Rhodes Eb6 pedal tuning. You sort of have some elements of E9, standard C6, and that b7 on string 9 (standard in E9) in this context makes me think of Junior Browns C13. |
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