Universal E9/B6 2nd string half stop

William Carter · From: Cedar Rapids, Iowa, USA

When I ordered my U12, I researched a lot of different setups before finalizing the copedent. Now that I realize the struggle of lowering E's on a lever with 3 pulls, I am questioning why most of the copedents I looked at had the 2nd string whole-step lower on the same lever with the E-lowers. That makes 3 return springs I'm having to fight to play the D-lever.

Would there be any disadvantage to moving that whole step lower on the 2nd string to the same lever with the 1/2 step 2nd string lower (half stop mechanism) like what it is on my E9 guitar?

I do not know enough about the C6 side yet to understand if there was some reason universals put the E lowers with the 2nd string whole step lower. Is that the reason?
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ZumSteel D10, Mullen G2 SD12 Universal, Rittenberry SD10

Larry Bressington · From: Nebraska

Most standard is 1/2 then whole on one lever, however many people dislike half stops, so they lower the 2nd string to C# on the E's lower lever especially if you have 4 levers. I use this feature and my knee is not very tight, i'm like you i don't like a hard working loaded lever.

If your lever is stiff, there maybe adjustments you can make to the pulls for a lighter feel, but that lenghtens the pull's, however that's hard to explain over the web and it can turn into a can of worms fast, a visit to a good steel man could look at it.
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Bobby D. Jones · From: West Virginia, USA

Lowering the 2nd string to C# with 4&8 to D# is a standard move on Jeff Newman's Universal Tuning.
He also lowers 2nd string to C# with the 9th string back D on LKL.

By moving the Pull Rods closer to cross rod a hole or 2 on the bell crank, Will take less pressure but at the cost of a little longer lever move.

Dennis Montgomery · From: Western Washington

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

Why a new thread? You already started one on this topic here - https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=366870

An important consideration in separating the string 2 D#=>D=>C# lever (that is frequently on standard E9 guitars) into two separate levers is that on the std E9 setup, the half-stop to D is frequently fixed by timing the string 9 D=>C# lower so that it starts exactly when the string 2 lower hits D, creating a feel stop. On E9/B6 universal, the most typical change to get the equivalent of that string 9 is to raise string 9 from B to D, which is a long change that generally needs to start early. So in that case, it is more difficult to get that feel stop. With that setup, the string 9 D to C# lower is obtained with the A-pedal down and releasing the B=>D raise.

So on universal, it is pretty common to separate the D#=>D and D#=>C# lowers to different levers. At that point, the question becomes, "What is the lever that will tolerate that extra lower with the least problems?". I definitely would not put it on the E=>F raise because it interferes with many uses for that lever. Similarly with the B=>Bb lower, if present. Other typical levers frequently have string 1 F#=>G#, string 2 D#=>E and either string 6 G#=>F# or string 7 F#=>G#, so that's out. This leaves the E=>Eb lower, unless you have an extra lever, which would typically mean >5 levers. Great if ya' got 'em, but there are also other competing uses for them if ya' do.

The other thing is that, looking at this from the B6 perspective on the universal E9/B6 tuning, the D#=>C# gives the equivalent of the D note on C6. So that makes it even more logical to put D#=>C# the E=>Eb lower, since that C# (9th tone) note is now available whenever operating in the so-called "B6 mode". I imagine a lot of dominantly E9 players don't think about it like this, but it's true.

So now the question is how to make this slightly porked-out E-lever easier to use. As Bobby says, one answer is to change the leverages around to accept a slightly longer pull in exchange for less torque required to activate that lever. But I'll say that my Zums handle this extra pull with zero problem at all, stock as they come from Bruce. My primary Zum U12 is totally stock and I can't tell any difference from a standard E=>Eb lever. I have a Mullen G2, but it's an SD-10 with the standard half-stop on string 2 and doesn't have that change on the E=>Eb lever. But I don't think I would have any difficulty adding that lower - the tension on the E=>Eb lever is not heavy at all with just the E lowers. Again, if it's an issue, change the leverages around to require less torque.

But yet another solution is to use a plunger type half-stop lower on string 2 to create a strong half-stop without necessarily timing it with the string 9 raise. My Franklin has one, and I think a number of builders use these. And Mullen sells one too - https://mullenguitars.com/shop/ols/products/half-stop-mechanism - as well as WBS guitars in Germany - https://wbssteelguitars.com/index.php?page=realstop.

Dennis Detweiler · From: Solon, Iowa, US

There are too many uses for the 2nd string moving independently from the Eb lever when playing E9th and B6th. It's defeating itself when moving D# to C# with the Eb lever.

Why not tune it open to C# (Hal Rugg) and raise it to D/C# with the same lever that raises string nine B to D? If Mullen makes a good half stop, it would be a worthwhile purchase. Then you'll have only two pulls on each of those levers.
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1976 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics 427 pickup, 1975 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics X-12 pickup, Boss 59 Fender pedal for preamp, NDR-5 Atlantic Delay & Reverb, two Quilter 201 amps, 2- 12" Eminence EPS-12C speakers, ShoBud Pedal, 1949 Epiphone D-8. Revelation preamp into a Crown XLS 1002 power amp.

William Carter · From: Cedar Rapids, Iowa, USA

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

William Carter · From: Cedar Rapids, Iowa, USA

I did talk to Mike at Mullen. He said changing the bell crank holes or the return springs either one is an option. I just need to pick out the best option, and I'm a little gun shy about return springs after what I had read on the forum. However, it is very possible that they set it up from the factory with the return springs in overkill mode just to eliminate the possibility of tuning issues. I'll have to research a little more before I am comfortable adjusting those after hearing too many people say not to touch them.
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ZumSteel D10, Mullen G2 SD12 Universal, Rittenberry SD10

Larry Bressington · From: Nebraska

Will, on the return springs...

* work one string at a time!!! E's lower strings 8,4,2
1)Unscrew the return spring adjusting screw maybe a half turn and then activate lever.
2)continue adjusting anti-clockwise and then activating lever until the string no longer returns to proper pitch, meaning it returns flat.
3)Then tighten clockwise one full turn.

That will get you very close and have the most relaxed tension on the return side of things, just make sure when you slowly activate the lever the string returns back to pitch, if it don't then tighten another half turn or so.... then you can go for the rod pulls, that's where pre taking photo's are best for reference and can get testy quick.
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Helmut Gragger · From: Austria

I have recently obtained my new (used) steel and changed around the assignments of the levers.

I come from a U-12, although I never got on with the B6 side of things, so my new steel is an extended E9th with the 9th string raised to a D with the D lever.

I have intuitively set up the D lever to drop string #2 to D resp. C# as I was used to, but since I am (yet) playing arrangements that come from a very basic (E9) setup with E,F,D levers, I have not yet run into a situation where I would have needed the C# on top.

I now dawns on me that this might have come from the C6 side of things (as Dave stated above), in which case the C# change makes more sense on the E lever (E to Eb), or remove it entirely.

I fail to see the purpose of a repeated c# there(the A pedal has one there anyways).

I would like to hear from your expertise on those changes, folks.

If the C# is of more use on the B6 side, then it is clearly on the wrong lever, since on many universals those changes are on opposing sides of the right knee.

I have devised a subjectively better method of a feel stop (which I may write about shortly...), that is less burdening, but if you want a well defined "sensation" that indicates your half stop position it ought to be pronounced, or it will be useless.

This lever is already pretty stiff since there was no way around using "stiffer" bell crank and lever hole assignments in order to achieve the displacement needed for the B to D change on string #9.

So it does introduce some friction which gets up my nose. I need this lever very often, so if the C# is relatively useless I remove it alongside with the half stop contraption.

Thanks,
Helmut
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Ian Rae · From: Redditch, England

I play B6/E9 universal. I tune the 2nd string to C# and raise it to D and D# on the same lever that raises 9 to D.
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Dennis Detweiler · From: Solon, Iowa, US

I do as Ian does. I custom built my own half stop to tune an accurate half and no extra resistance of the traditional spring loaded half stop.
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1976 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics 427 pickup, 1975 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics X-12 pickup, Boss 59 Fender pedal for preamp, NDR-5 Atlantic Delay & Reverb, two Quilter 201 amps, 2- 12" Eminence EPS-12C speakers, ShoBud Pedal, 1949 Epiphone D-8. Revelation preamp into a Crown XLS 1002 power amp.

Ian Worley · From: Sacramento, CA

Helmut Gragger · From: Austria

Ah yes, this is reverse engineered. Interesting.

May I express my primary question differently: does anybody use the second string C# and in what situation?

Edit: Ian, you were faster. It defies my logic why this change is on the D lever then on all universals...
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Ian Worley · From: Sacramento, CA

Helmut Gragger · From: Austria

What a song.
ThatÂ´s mastership. What shall I say.
Thanks for the great explanation. I can hear what you say.
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Dennis Detweiler · From: Solon, Iowa, US

Another example:

You can also duplicate the Franklin 1st string F# to G# pedal pull (open E chord). Matching the two G# notes of the 1st and 3rd strings.

With the 2nd string tuned to C# and raised a full tone with a knee lever:
At the 5th fret with B pedal and Eb lever engaged (E7th position). Now raise the 2nd string a full tone F# to G# to match the G# on the 4th string. In this case it's a disadvantage to have the second string pull connected to the Eb lever.
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1976 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics 427 pickup, 1975 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics X-12 pickup, Boss 59 Fender pedal for preamp, NDR-5 Atlantic Delay & Reverb, two Quilter 201 amps, 2- 12" Eminence EPS-12C speakers, ShoBud Pedal, 1949 Epiphone D-8. Revelation preamp into a Crown XLS 1002 power amp.

Helmut Gragger · From: Austria

Proâ€˜s and conâ€˜s. Maybe It is wise to leave it as it is, and indeed concentrate on having fun playing. Thanks for your viewpoints.
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J D Sauser · From: Wellington, Florida

Helmut Gragger · From: Austria

Makes lot of sense - I might try that.
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Jim Pitman · From: Waterbury Ctr. VT 05677 USA

I've dispensed with my second string half stop. It is now a half step lower only. I tend to use that descension quite often in a fast pace tune and I found I would overshoot and wind up somewhere between a half and full lower. I could make it work fine in slower material. Perhaps I'll go back to it but rig up an over-ride mechanism that stops at the half firmly. In this manner I could use it in both 1/8 note and longer note execution passages.
I've owned three PSGs with it and have always come to the same conclusion.

Helmut Gragger · From: Austria

If I understand you right, you basically talk about a dedicated half stop mechanism. I made up such a thing, and it stops precisely at the desired half stop position, but if you want it to be a pronounced stop that you do not easily overshoot, it ought to be firm, which inevitably adds some friction you have to overcome if you proceed to the end. I did it in a way that it does not add spring pressure like many of the spring based mechanism, but it has to add some tactile "detent" with some "friction" or it will be futile.

This will always be some kind of irritation.
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