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Topic: Fine tuning timing |
Ron Pruter
From:
Arizona, USA
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Posted 25 Jul 2021 4:59 pm |
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With little else to do, I've been fine tuning my pulls. Lots of previous changes have been done to my Emmons SKH guitar and some of the pedals and levers were off. The two strings per cross shaft were starting at different times. They got to the right note together but you felt the tensions kick in along the travel. Of course to fix this you need to either change the hole you are using in the changer or in the bell crank on the string that doesn't start right at the beginning of the pushing of the pedal or lever.
My conventional C pedal, my A pedal and my F lever were off. It's now perfect. In one situation I used a 14 hole Emmons bell crank. BTW, this is the reason you should have many choices (holes) in your bell cranks. Especially if you have changed some of you gauges of strings which will need a different amount of travel. I don't know why I waited so long to do this? Anyway, everything is working great now. 
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Emmons SKH Le Grande, '73 Fender P/J bass, Tick tack bass, Regal high strung, USA Nashville 112. |
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Marty Broussard
From:
Broussard, Louisiana, USA
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Posted 25 Jul 2021 5:08 pm
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Is it better than ice cream? Lol….
_________________
RETIRED
"Technique is really the elimination of the unnecessary..it is a constant effort to avoid any personal impediment or obstacle to achieve the smooth flow of energy and intent" Yehudi Menuhin |
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Joe Hensley
From:
Boise, Idaho, USA
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Posted 25 Jul 2021 5:10 pm
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| Great post, I always love digging into the mechanics and various setups for different copendents. Sometimes I'll just mess around when everything feels fine just to learn more about what impacts little tweaks can make. |
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Peter Freiberger
From:
California, USA
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Posted 25 Jul 2021 5:33 pm
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| I spend way too much time and effort tming pulls on my all pull instruments. It’s even more time consuming on a Push/Pull! |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 26 Jul 2021 3:44 am
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On my Williams uni, the two P7 pulls never timed until I decided to do something about it. It's crowded under there, and Bill Rudolph had gone for neatness. Now it's untidy but it's so much nicer to play!
No criticism of Williams guitars, I must add - it's a question of priorities. I like to squeeze that change like you would the A pedal 
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Ross Shafer
From:
Petaluma, California
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Posted 26 Jul 2021 7:03 am
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Marty Broussard
From:
Broussard, Louisiana, USA
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Posted 26 Jul 2021 8:24 am
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Such a great design, Ross!!!
_________________
RETIRED
"Technique is really the elimination of the unnecessary..it is a constant effort to avoid any personal impediment or obstacle to achieve the smooth flow of energy and intent" Yehudi Menuhin |
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Joe Hensley
From:
Boise, Idaho, USA
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Posted 26 Jul 2021 8:32 am
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| Wow Ross, love to see more. |
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Jon Light
From:
Saugerties, NY
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Posted 26 Jul 2021 9:04 am
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Ross has previously cited this design by Blanton as an inspiration. I took some photos while this was on my bench a couple of years ago. I LOVE these cranks. And loose enough to sit at the guitar and reach under to fine tune!
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 26 Jul 2021 12:35 pm
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When I was building my first uni 12 I came up with the abstract notion of the infinitely variable bell crank, but I didn't have the resources to realise it, especially as I wanted to crack on and get it finished.
I'm glad to see it living!
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Gene Tani
From:
Pac NW
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Posted 26 Jul 2021 9:16 pm
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from Steel Guitar World June/July 1997 (took me awhile to find it...
 [/img]
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- keyless Sonny Jenkins laps stay in tune forever!; Carter PSG
- The secret sauce: polyester sweatpants to buff your picks, cheapo Presonus channel strip for preamp/EQ/compress/limiter, Diet Mountain Dew |
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Marty Broussard
From:
Broussard, Louisiana, USA
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Posted 27 Jul 2021 3:06 am
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Gene, I’ve often wondered how many guitars have those bell cranks and how they held-up.
_________________
RETIRED
"Technique is really the elimination of the unnecessary..it is a constant effort to avoid any personal impediment or obstacle to achieve the smooth flow of energy and intent" Yehudi Menuhin |
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Ross Shafer
From:
Petaluma, California
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Posted 27 Jul 2021 6:43 am
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Thanks for the compliment Marty. The Blanton cranks were certainly validating and inspiring, but the first inspiration for the micro adjust bell cranks was my many years of familiarity with all manner of micro-adjust mechanisms in the bicycle, motorcycle, engineering and machinist world. When I first saw the Blanton bell cranks, I was honestly kinda bummed, having having convinced myself that I had a truly new idea.....HA...ain't hardly nothin' new when you really start digging. I learned this over and over and over during my time in the bike biz trenches.
Some info on the Blanton design. The adjustable bell cranks on Jerry Blanton's guitars were used to tune the pulls as there were no end plate tuners. I'm told that the timing just came into adjustment by tuning the notes, but I can't see how that works....though, I can be dense sometimes.
When I happened upon the Link-on design, I tried to order some right away and was told there was only one left. I bought it (have since given it away or lost it). Neat idea but way to wide to fit neatly in a well loaded guitar and getting ones fingers in there to adjust it would be a challenge if crowded at all. Teensy adjustments would be a frustrating excercise at best.
The Sierra bell cranks can be purchased. They start at $10k and a whole pedal steel is included at no charge. |
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Marty Broussard
From:
Broussard, Louisiana, USA
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Posted 27 Jul 2021 6:48 am
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Ross, I wish we had a “Like†button….lmbo!
“The Sierra bell cranks can be purchased. They start at $10k and a whole pedal steel is included at no charge.â€
_________________
RETIRED
"Technique is really the elimination of the unnecessary..it is a constant effort to avoid any personal impediment or obstacle to achieve the smooth flow of energy and intent" Yehudi Menuhin |
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Jon Light
From:
Saugerties, NY
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Posted 27 Jul 2021 6:55 am
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Ross -- thanks for that clarification and for that reminder. My mission was to set up and fine tune this Blanton (and add a pickup and do some other misc. work) and I surely spent some time trying to figure out how an all-pull guitar can possibly not have endplate tuners. I've forgotten that the cranks indeed tune the pulls rather than serve as 'fine tuners' or timing tweakers.
I need a bunch of cranks. How many do I get if I buy 3 Sierras? |
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Roger Rettig
From:
Naples, FL
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Posted 15 Nov 2022 12:20 pm
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I've discovered a timing issue:
My LKL2 lowers my Es. The high E reaches D# before the low one does. I can feel myself having to 'push through' to get the 8th down to pitch.
They're two very different gauges - how do I go about matching them so they lower in sync, please? |
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Bengt Erlandsen
From:
Brekstad, NORWAY
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Posted 16 Nov 2022 3:06 am
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@Roger
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| My LKL2 lowers my Es. The high E reaches D# before the low one does |
Assuming you have an all-pull steelguitar.
The pullrod on the high E string need to travel less distance or....
the pullrod on the low E string need to travel a longer distance.
If adjusting rods closer/further from the cross-shaft wont make pulls syncronized then you may have to change holes on one or both rods at the changer.
The nylon tuner will only change when changer starts to move. It dosent really change how much it raise or lower since that is dependant on the mechanical stops of the lever/pedal itself.
With a small flat screwdriver you can gently push each of the lowering fingers until string reaches Eb and make a note how much each finger needs to move in order to reach Eb. Then it is not so much trial and error to figure which holes on changer finger to use and also if one rod should be closer to cross-shaft or not.
If none of those mentioned above manage get strings syncronized then you may have to change string gauge on one or the other string as last option.
Best of luck getting pulls syncronized. It is well worth the effort as guitar will be sooo much more fun to play when pulls are going perfectly together.
BTW, If you have the 4th string split tuned w the C pedal to give and F note, then you probably gonna need to use the split tuning(lowering limit screw) screw on both the 4th and 8th string, even if there is no split on the 8th string in order to have both strings syncronized when lowering to Eb while also beeing able to have C pedal split tuned.
B.Erlandsen |
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Roger Rettig
From:
Naples, FL
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Posted 16 Nov 2022 3:25 am
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Thank you so much for your comprehensive explanation, Bengt! It's much appreciated.
I will start with bell-crank holes!!! Taking those Emmons E-clips on and off shortens my life considerably!!
They both appear to be using the same (or close) holes now - maybe 6 or 7? They're 14-hole cranks.
For now, I retuned the 8th lower so it reached D# when I feel the stop from the 4th string but that's clearly a lazy way of dealing with it.
I do split with the C oedal.
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Roger Rettig - Emmons D10s, Quilter TT-12, B-bender Teles and old Martins.
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Dennis Detweiler
From:
Solon, Iowa, US
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Posted 16 Nov 2022 7:17 am
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I noticed that the Blanton has a design for mounting on round shafts. That's a welcome addition to the old MSA's that required loosening all shaft parts and removing the shaft to add a string pull.
_________________
1976 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics 427 pickup, 1975 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics X-12 pickup, Boss 59 Fender pedal for preamp, NDR-5 Atlantic Delay & Reverb, two Quilter 201 amps, 2- 12" Eminence EPS-12C speakers, ShoBud Pedal, 1949 Epiphone D-8. Revelation preamp into a Crown XLS 1002 power amp. |
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