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Topic: For now, 1 knee lever... |
Paul Leoni
From:
Mississippi, USA
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Posted 22 Jun 2021 8:18 am |
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I can either raise 2, lower 2, or raise 1 and lower 1.
Suggestions for basic Apt # 9, Together Again etc classic country. I will start there and then add another later.
Thanks! |
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Paul Leoni
From:
Mississippi, USA
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Posted 22 Jun 2021 8:20 am
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Ps, for now it will be RKR if it makes a
a difference. Don't mind a relearn later, I am funny that way.
Last edited by Paul Leoni on 24 Jun 2021 7:10 am; edited 1 time in total |
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J Fletcher
From:
London,Ont,Canada
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Posted 22 Jun 2021 9:41 am
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| Myself , I would lower both E's to D# . |
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Paul Leoni
From:
Mississippi, USA
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Posted 22 Jun 2021 10:01 am
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| J Fletcher wrote: |
| Myself , I would lower both E's to D# . |
Was thinking of either raising or lowering the Es
Now it's one lever.. E-F (hi) and simultaneously E-D# lo
I dont know if that gets me anywhere or not. |
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Ken Mizell
From:
Lakeland, Florida, 33809, USA
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Posted 22 Jun 2021 10:32 am
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Don't get too complicated to quick. 3 pedals and 1 knee lowering both E's to Eb (or D#) is enough to last you a long while if you are just starting out. Another suggestion - If you have other levers, just fold them up and out of the way for now. Most beginner courses start with the E to Eb change, and two, sometimes 3 pedals. Loads and loads of beautiful pedal steel music can be made with 3 & 1, or even 2 & 1. Together Again can be played with just the A-B pedals, and no levers.
_________________
Steeless. |
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Paul Leoni
From:
Mississippi, USA
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Posted 22 Jun 2021 10:36 am
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| Ken Mizell wrote: |
| Don't get too complicated to quick. 3 pedals and 1 knee lowering both E's to Eb (or D#) is enough to last you a long while if you are just starting out. Another suggestion - If you have other levers, just fold them up and out of the way for now. Most beginner courses start with the E to Eb change, and two, sometimes 3 pedals. Loads and loads of beautiful pedal steel music can be made with 3 & 1, or even 2 & 1. |
That's exactly what I was thinking. Short term for me, and long term to produce a few "trainer" steels.
So you all think that dropping both E's is the smartest "basic" move I could make? The most important one for classic country?
I was thinking raises to F was better? Probably not huh? |
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Ken Mizell
From:
Lakeland, Florida, 33809, USA
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Posted 22 Jun 2021 10:55 am
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Lower E's if you only have 1 lever. If two levers, raise the E's to F as well.
_________________
Steeless. |
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K Maul
From:
Hadley, NY/Hobe Sound, FL
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Posted 22 Jun 2021 11:47 am
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Ralph Mooney had one lever that lowered his eighth and raised his fourth string. And that was good for him. Now if you have second string Eb you can pretend you’re Lloyd Green - use string 2 and stay away from 4 when you want Eb. I’ve done it that way and it’s not bad..
_________________
Kevin Maul: Airline, Beard, Clinesmith, Decophonic, Evans, Excel, Fender, Fluger, Gibson, Hilton, Ibanez, Justice, K+K, Live Strings, MOYO, National, Oahu, Peterson, Quilter, Rickenbacher, Sho~Bud, Supro, TC, Ultimate, VHT, Williams, X-otic, Yamaha, ZKing. |
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Paul Leoni
From:
Mississippi, USA
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Posted 22 Jun 2021 12:41 pm
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| K Maul wrote: |
| Ralph Mooney had one lever that lowered his eighth and raised his fourth string. And that was good for him. Now if you have second string Eb you can pretend you’re Lloyd Green - use string 2 and stay away from 4 when you want Eb. I’ve done it that way and it’s not bad.. |
Never been great at pretending. I can't fool me, I have probably produced 1000+ sides since the 80s. I do excel at mediocrity on a bunch of instruments, the crowd does like that. A friend (hmmmm) said I was a "multi incrementalist" (-;
Ha! I said yeah? One that gave you a gig (-:
What I need is the lowest common denominator to get this onstage and play a few classic country licks for them in the sessions. As quick as I can (-: |
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Tommy Mc
From:
Middlesex VT
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Posted 22 Jun 2021 1:33 pm
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| K Maul wrote: |
| Ralph Mooney had one lever that lowered his eighth and raised his fourth string. And that was good for him. Now if you have second string Eb you can pretend you’re Lloyd Green - use string 2 and stay away from 4 when you want Eb. I’ve done it that way and it’s not bad.. |
My thought is that (while there are some outliers) the most common setup is to have one lever to lower both E's and a separate one to raise both E's. Muscle memory is a large component of learning, and if you get used to a single lever compromise, you'll need to relearn some of your most basic moves when you graduate to an instrument with more levers.
So you may want to consider....and everybody is different in this respect....how easily you will be able adapt to changes that you've learned on a different lever. FWIW, the old Sho-Bud Mavericks came with just one lever (RKR) that lowered the 2nd string. Personally, I don't find that as useful as the E lower, but a lot of music could be made on those old Mavericks. These days, something like 80% of players put the E raise and E lower on LKL and LKR, respectively. Then there's a smaller number who learned on steels with only 2 levers (mine was a Sho-Bud) on the right knee. That's how I got used to the E lower on RKL, and I never put the effort into re-learning the more common configuration on the left knee.
Following that line of logic, there is an argument to be made that whatever change(s) you assign to your one lever should be ones you will want to keep there. While the E lower is arguably the most useful you do have other ways of getting that note. That's one of the fascinating aspects of steel. So if you think you may be upgrading to more levers fairly soon, it might make sense to forego learning changes that are going to be in different places on most steels. |
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Paul Leoni
From:
Mississippi, USA
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Posted 22 Jun 2021 2:52 pm
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Most of the time I will be on other instruments.
Hell I can pick the songs to intersect the crowd and the instrument. The idea is "play something iconic"
Does that sound like lowered E's?
Sooo...it would be things like..."Crazy
Arms" Things that are known but are iconic hopefully energetic..... |
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Paul Leoni
From:
Mississippi, USA
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Posted 22 Jun 2021 3:17 pm
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In fact playing the exact melody is not as important to me personally as being able to improvise something over the changes and grab the "feel" of an iconic tune.
What will happen is I will loop a verse and chorus on keyboard with left hand bass and keys, then turn and play a ride over that with steel, go back punch in and eventually conclude the song. In this manner what will be very important is having basic chords available. I will improvise a chord based melody with what I have available. Does that make sense? I will need basic 7ths diminished..etc..
As much as possible. Hope that gives a clue to what I am after. Yes! I want to cheat like hell without hitting clams... |
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Paul Leoni
From:
Mississippi, USA
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Posted 22 Jun 2021 3:47 pm
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This is starting to sound like lowered E's to me
I currently have the high E on raise to F. Available to me now via A and B knee combos are 7TH, Aug, Diminished and another set of major triads up a third. Some voicings there may not be as conducive to improvising a ride. Not sure how the lower high E to Db will sound, versus the raise to E but I bet you guys know. |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 22 Jun 2021 10:26 pm
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There is the option of learning from history.
The first ever lever lowered 8 to D# and 2 to D. Strings which already had a raise attached (such as 4) could not be lowered back then. Winnie Winston's book published in the mid-70s regards that lever as the only essential one, although he acknowledges raising and lowering both Es if possible.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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J Fletcher
From:
London,Ont,Canada
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Posted 23 Jun 2021 11:17 am
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So...
"What will happen is I will loop a verse and chorus on keyboard with left hand bass and keys, then turn and play a ride over that with steel, go back punch in and eventually conclude the song."
You are going to be doing this live ? Have you much steel playing experience ? Just curious . |
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Paul Leoni
From:
Mississippi, USA
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Posted 24 Jun 2021 5:50 am
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| J Fletcher wrote: |
So...
"What will happen is I will loop a verse and chorus on keyboard with left hand bass and keys, then turn and play a ride over that with steel, go back punch in and eventually conclude the song."
You are going to be doing this live ? Have you much steel playing experience ? Just curious . |
HaHa! Yes I will pull it off.. Doing similar for about 50+ years 4-7 nights a week plus decades in the studio producing sides and demos for people (punching in and out on the one, loop? No problem!)
I currently do it with Boss RC loopers, I did use tape loops!.... Usually start with keyboards (split to left bass), then add tenor and alto sax, harmonica, banjo. Or start with Chet/Travis style guitar (so I can have my bass line when I start with guitar) I think I can probably manage to swing my fat ass around to play a fair err...edit.. *mediocre* rendition of"Swinging Doors on a simple pedal steel in a few weeks (-:
Pete Leoni.
Multi *incremen-talist*
Last edited by Paul Leoni on 24 Jun 2021 6:27 am; edited 5 times in total |
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Paul Leoni
From:
Mississippi, USA
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Posted 24 Jun 2021 6:05 am
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And you guys are my teachers now, I will credit you...
" Yo! shout out to my homeys on The Steel Guitar Forum...
Sorry about those clams. Just Kidding (-: |
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Edward Dixon
From:
Crestview Florida
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Posted 24 Jun 2021 6:35 am Re: For now, 1 knee lever...
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| Paul Leoni wrote: |
I can either raise 2, lower 2, or raise 1 and lower 1.
Suggestions for basic Apt # 9, Together Again etc classic country. I will start there and then add another later.
Thanks! |
Here is a link to a 3 part video series that will give you a good idea of the chordal possibilities available. The answer to your question depends on what kind of chords you want/need to make. E-Eb will produce a minor, and with the A/B pedals a 7th or 9th chord. The videos explain what the other levers are used for.
Knees You Need:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TiyvFCy86_o&list=PLWhsR34W6rfQVTUwwpJBuomGiJKQdSwGx&index=55
_________________
"Faith don't need no second opinion." |
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Paul Leoni
From:
Mississippi, USA
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Posted 24 Jun 2021 6:43 am
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| K Maul wrote: |
| Ralph Mooney had one lever that lowered his eighth and raised his fourth string. And that was good for him. Now if you have second string Eb you can pretend you’re Lloyd Green - use string 2 and stay away from 4 when you want Eb. I’ve done it that way and it’s not bad.. |
That's the (One lever raised 4th, Lowered 8th) way it is set up now! What should the open tuning be? As it is it's in half steps.
And what are the advantages? I would love to just leave it this way for a while. |
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Paul Leoni
From:
Mississippi, USA
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Posted 24 Jun 2021 7:07 am Re: For now, 1 knee lever...
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| Edward Dixon wrote: |
| Paul Leoni wrote: |
I can either raise 2, lower 2, or raise 1 and lower 1.
Suggestions for basic Apt # 9, Together Again etc classic country. I will start there and then add another later.
Thanks! |
Here is a link to a 3 part video series that will give you a good idea of the chordal possibilities available. The answer to your question depends on what kind of chords you want/need to make. E-Eb will produce a minor, and with the A/B pedals a 7th or 9th chord. The videos explain what the other levers are used for.
Knees You Need:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TiyvFCy86_o&list=PLWhsR34W6rfQVTUwwpJBuomGiJKQdSwGx&index=55 |
I am watching now thanks. I would very much like to keep this as simple as possible. Right now I have on lever sey up, a raised 4th string E to F and lowered 8 string E to Db. If that is simple and useful leaving it that way would be great. It is currently in standard Nashville tuning. As I am using it now, I am just avoiding the 8th string lower, so in essence I just have a raise on my high E. I am in no hurry to get fancy but I wonder if I am shooting my self in the foot by not lowering that high E instead of raising it. Bearing in mind I want to do truly classic simple 50s-70s country, and not hitting clams.
In other words I want to avoid "outlier" strings that are not part of a chord that will work. Sure hope that makes sense.
Thanks. |
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K Maul
From:
Hadley, NY/Hobe Sound, FL
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Posted 24 Jun 2021 10:21 am
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| Paul Leoni wrote: |
| K Maul wrote: |
| Ralph Mooney had one lever that lowered his eighth and raised his fourth string. And that was good for him... |
That's the (One lever raised 4th, Lowered 8th) way it is set up now! What should the open tuning be? As it is it's in half steps.
And what are the advantages? I would love to just leave it this way for a while. |
Well I’m assuming the guitar is an E9 tuning. I might not be understanding what you’re saying exactly but it should be low to high BDEF# G#BEG#Eb F#. So…the advantage is that you don’t have to add another knee lever immediately and you still get the E-F move on the 4th string. When you want the E flat that you would normally get on the fourth string with the lever you just reach over and get it on the second string as I mentioned Lloyd Green does. The disadvantage - you might get used to doing it that way and when you add other knee levers you’ll have to adapt. I think that’s what we all do anyway. Adapt.
_________________
Kevin Maul: Airline, Beard, Clinesmith, Decophonic, Evans, Excel, Fender, Fluger, Gibson, Hilton, Ibanez, Justice, K+K, Live Strings, MOYO, National, Oahu, Peterson, Quilter, Rickenbacher, Sho~Bud, Supro, TC, Ultimate, VHT, Williams, X-otic, Yamaha, ZKing. |
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Joel Jackson
From:
Detroit
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Posted 24 Jun 2021 2:35 pm
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| This thread has got me thinking what i would do with a 1 lever set up. I think i'd go with the set up you currently have. I tend toward using the lower on the 8 string more often for Mooney style dom 7/9 voicings and it has been pointed out you've got the 2 string there if you want that note. The 4 raise is great for your 3 frets up position, and great for getting alterations and b9 extensions on chords. That's probably plenty to focus on for a beginner and a whole lot more than i could ever do can be done with that set up. |
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Paul Leoni
From:
Mississippi, USA
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Posted 24 Jun 2021 4:02 pm
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| K Maul wrote: |
| Paul Leoni wrote: |
| K Maul wrote: |
| Ralph Mooney had one lever that lowered his eighth and raised his fourth string. And that was good for him... |
That's the (One lever raised 4th, Lowered 8th) way it is set up now! What should the open tuning be? As it is it's in half steps.
And what are the advantages? I would love to just leave it this way for a while. |
Well I’m assuming the guitar is an E9 tuning. I might not be understanding what you’re saying exactly but it should be low to high BDEF# G#BEG#Eb F#. So…the advantage is that you don’t have to add another knee lever immediately and you still get the E-F move on the 4th string. When you want the E flat that you would normally get on the fourth string with the lever you just reach over and get it on the second string as I mentioned Lloyd Green does. The disadvantage - you might get used to doing it that way and when you add other knee levers you’ll have to adapt. I think that’s what we all do anyway. Adapt. |
That's the tuning I have now. I guess I will just avoid the lowered 8th string to E to Eb/D# for a while and concentrate what I can do with the raised E to F on the fourth. I see a lot of stuff possible. I do regret its RKR now though as that is rather "unconventional" these days. |
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K Maul
From:
Hadley, NY/Hobe Sound, FL
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Posted 24 Jun 2021 6:36 pm
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I would not avoid that 8th string! With the B pedal and that string lowered go back 2 frets, then you have the dom7 chord of A+B. That’s an essential move and very easy to do.
The fact that it is on RKR may be an advantage if/when you get “proper†E knee levers. They’ll most likely be on the left so a whole new lesson in muscle memory. It is an ongoing process if you want to really delve into pedal steel. If you just want to learn a few tricks then your current setup will be just fine for you and you’ll be able to do quite a lot with it.
_________________
Kevin Maul: Airline, Beard, Clinesmith, Decophonic, Evans, Excel, Fender, Fluger, Gibson, Hilton, Ibanez, Justice, K+K, Live Strings, MOYO, National, Oahu, Peterson, Quilter, Rickenbacher, Sho~Bud, Supro, TC, Ultimate, VHT, Williams, X-otic, Yamaha, ZKing. |
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manny escobar
From:
portsmouth,r.i. usa
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Posted 25 Jun 2021 5:29 am
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| In 1974 I was at a Jeff Newman seminar in Boston where he said if he had to play pedal steel with only one knee lever, it would be the E raise F lever. |
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