The Steel Guitar Forum Store 

Post new topic Volume pedal that does not hinder PSG playabilty
Reply to topic
Author Topic:  Volume pedal that does not hinder PSG playabilty
Helmut Gragger


From:
Austria
Post  Posted 18 Jun 2021 12:38 am    
Reply with quote

("Electronics" is not quite the place for this Smile )
Integrating a volume pedal in your PSG playing invariably introduces a disturbing factor, because the height of the pedal interferes with the playability of the guitar by shifting your legs out of an optimum position, where they can operate the knee levers most easily, however you try to twist it.

Out of necessity I thought up a very simple method that cures this. It is ridiculously simple and inexpensive, and I would not be surprised, if somebody else had dreamt up the same thing long ago. It stares into your face, so to speak.

The method cancels out the space needed for a volume pedal, so you can use any volume pedal you like.

http://me.aquataur.guru/musicstuff/steel-plane-shifter.html

Let me know if this is for you.
Have fun.

-Helmut
_________________
feel at home at: http://me.aquataur.guru
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website

Erv Niehaus


From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
Post  Posted 18 Jun 2021 7:30 am    
Reply with quote

Funny, I've never had a problem. Rolling Eyes
Erv
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail

J Fletcher

 

From:
London,Ont,Canada
Post  Posted 20 Jun 2021 5:00 pm    
Reply with quote

That's pretty clever . Lately the volume pedal under my foot has been making my leg go to sleep , so I practice without it . I noticed that there was increased mechanical advantage using my right knee levers after dong this .
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail

Doug Beaumier


From:
Northampton, MA
Post  Posted 20 Jun 2021 5:49 pm    
Reply with quote

I've never had this problem with any pedal steel & volume pedal... and I've played a lot of them. However, I can see how a tall player with long legs might experience this.
_________________
My Site / My YouTube Channel
25 Songs C6 Lap Steel / 25 MORE Songs C6 Lap Steel / 16 Songs, C6, A6, B11 / 60 Popular Melodies E9 Pedal Steel
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website

Helmut Gragger


From:
Austria
Post  Posted 20 Jun 2021 10:49 pm    
Reply with quote

I come to the understanding that less high grown people have no problem with that, but not with 192cm. My throne tops out with 62 cm, and I am close to that. Every cm further up on the knee lever decides on operability.
I was up in the mounting screws with my leg, and that was the half-bad compromise version Wink

J. Fletcher, maybe you try it. The effort is really ridiculously little for what you can gain.
_________________
feel at home at: http://me.aquataur.guru
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website

James Sission

 

From:
Sugar Land,Texas USA
Post  Posted 21 Jun 2021 5:17 am    
Reply with quote

Doug Beaumier wrote:
I've never had this problem with any pedal steel & volume pedal... and I've played a lot of them. However, I can see how a tall player with long legs might experience this.


Your right Doug. I'm 6 foot 4 and my solution is a simple raise kit with a low profile volume pedal. My last guitar purchase was a custom built Williams with longer legs and floor pedals which solved the problem.


____
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail

Erv Niehaus


From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
Post  Posted 21 Jun 2021 7:20 am    
Reply with quote

Ole brought a mule home.
It wouldn't go in the barn because the tips of his ears would touch the top of the door opening.
Ole was ready to raise up the barn.
Sven came around and said: "Why don't you just dig out some on the bottom"?
Ole said: "The trouble isn't with the bottom, the trouble is on top". Whoa!
Erv
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail

Peter Harris

 

From:
South Australia, Australia
Post  Posted 22 Jun 2021 1:05 am    
Reply with quote

Erv, if you can just picture me laughing, that will have to do, ok ?
Whatever you do, don't tell b0b..
_________________
If my wife is reading this, I don't have much stuff....really!
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail

Peter Harris

 

From:
South Australia, Australia
Post  Posted 22 Jun 2021 5:52 am    
Reply with quote

OK...I'll just add some thoughts in here, FWIW...
...serious stuff..NO jokes, b0b

As some people possibly(?) picked up, I play a lot of regular guitar, and also "synth-guitar"...which is basically using a special Roland pickup on an electric guitar to trigger a synthesiser unit...this combination means one gets to stand in for some of the parts that would normally be played on a keyboard...one less band member to manage and pay!

When one is doing this sort of thing, one generally has both hands well-occupied and Roland (in their rare moment of forward-thinking) actually realised that the guitarist would need to make good use of foot controls, so they built some into their floor-mounted synth units such as the GR series and the Boss GP-10, etc.

That's all very well, but as time has passed, people have got even smarter in the way that they manipulate these bits of kit, and a lot of people now add in separate (extra) remote foot controls to augment the measly amount that Roland provided in the first place.

Because these units are basically computers, and are VERY programmable to do what the individual user wants, another (more recent) habit is to use a 'normal' guitar expression pedal (not unlike a 'wah pedal') as a foot control attached to the unit , with the synth unit then programmed to take the signals generated from the pedal as commands to make all sorts of changes to various parameters 'on the fly', so to speak.

Doing this sort of thing then enables one to easily bring in different effects and sounds according to where one might be at a particular part of a number, etc...maybe sound like strings through the verse and then sound like the brass section through the chorus, say.

Needless-to-say, I lapped up this sort of thing with great gusto..WITH ONE BIG EXCEPTION...being a person who plays standing up, the use of a regular expression pedal (in appearance equal to that of a normal guitar-type volume pedal) meant that I had to put all my weight on one foot while operating the pedal with the other foot......I am TOO OLD for this cr@p, I thought...there's got to be a work-around.

I wanted something where my weight was still supported on the heel of the foot I used to operate the pedal.....

(Here is the important part of this novel, Folks)

I discovered (!!) the "DAMPER PEDAL" used with electronic keyboards !
...if you are handy with a soldering iron, and buy a damper pedal with pot in it (called one that includes 'Half-Damper') you can bugger about with the electronics within it quite easily so that it can emulate the signals of an expression pedal..

If you Google "keyboard damper pedal' or "Roland DP-10", you will immediately see that it sits on the floor with a piano-style pedal poking back at you..you just tickle that with your toes whilst leaving your heel firmly attached to the floor ...

This solved my problems (of that time, anyway) and I have gone on to have lots of fun by myself without making too big a thing about it....THEN, just now, I thought "HEY ! Light Bulb Moment coming up!!"...If it is possible to turn one of these damper pedals into a Volume Pedal...and it is.....the ergonomics of that end up close in stature to that of all the other pedals under the Steel.

One MAJOR downside is that it is a spring-loaded pedal and one would obviously have to include a manually-set minimum volume level when it was allowed to return to its (upward) position...BUT, that said, the variable control for that could be remote to the pedal itself, and be within easy (hand) reach of the Steeler with a little bit of fore-thought and electronical trickery.

Personally, I like the feel of a pedal that works like an accelerator that I can operate with my heel on the floor mat, rather than feeling like I am about to climb a flight of steps every time I want to use it.

I got to thinking about this while eating to regain sustenance after my previous post, and thought this could actually be EASIER than digging a hole in the floor of every venue to accommodate the Great Big Un-ergonomic Volume Pedal that everybody glues to the floor under their Pedal Steel.. Confused

...It sort of lowers the floor, rather than raising the Steel.....thank you for that thought, Erv...and yes, I AM still smiling, sorry 'bout that b0b...and I know you did what you had to do... Wink

Disclaimer:
In no way do I pretend this is a better solution than that of the OP of this thread...I am nevertheless interested in the comments of anyone who wants to weigh in on things...

Peace, and Happy Pedalling..

Peter
_________________
If my wife is reading this, I don't have much stuff....really!
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail

Erv Niehaus


From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
Post  Posted 22 Jun 2021 7:15 am    
Reply with quote

Thanks, guys! Very Happy
Erv
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail

Dave Mudgett


From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
Post  Posted 22 Jun 2021 8:52 am    
Reply with quote

I've shrunk from 6'4-1/2" to around 6'3" (192cm) in the last 20 years, and I have always had to use a lift kit on my guitar (what you call 'raisers'). Minimum 2" on a standard-height D10, and typically 3" on a slightly-wider than single-body Univesal 12-string. I use an old-school Sho Bud volume pedal. I've tried all kinds of volume pedals, and that is what I prefer. Without raising the right side a bit more than the left side, I do notice a slight mis-alignment of either the left or right knee lever cluster, depending on how high I actually raised the guitar. For me, it's not a big deal to find a reasonable compromise in the overall height to get knee positions that work for both left and right knee lever clusters without any fiddly bits like an extra spacer on the front-right leg and a left foot rest.

But at one point I did, as an experiment, raise the right side a bit more on ZumSteel D10. I just made the lift kit front-right leg spacer a bit longer and lengthened the right-rear leg the same. This is a bit different than your approach of putting an additional spacer under the pedal bar. I'm not sure how you'd use that approach on a D10 or U12 with around 8 pedals and deal with how much higher the pedal bar sits, with the right-most C6 pedals. A variable height, slanted foot rest? Seems like a lot of trouble to me.

Using the single longer right spacer approach as I did, you do need to compensate somehow for the tilt in the horizontal plane of the pedals - if the pedal-rod spacers are all the same, the horizontal plane of the pedals (but not the pedalboard) is no longer parallel to the floor. I found that it was a relatively small correction for the first 3 or 4 pedals that I could handle with the slack in where the pedal-rod extenders were set. But for the further-right pedals, I had to add additional small pedal-rod extenders to bring those pedal down to keep them reasonably parallel to the horizontal plane of the floor.

I'd say it helped a bit, but in the end, it just complicated things more than I wanted and went back to the straight 2-3" lift. I guess I just found the compromise between left and right lever cluster heights worked for me. I find the body adapts if you don't push it too hard.

My perspective may be different. My first pedal steel was an Emmons Student Model, no adjustable legs, narrow body. I could not use the knee lever at all until I kludged together a way to raise the back legs and pushed the pedalboard out using a spacer for the bolts that held the pedalboard on. It was ugly and very, very far from good ergonomically. But it got me started - barely. Once I got a good D10 and put a proper lift kit on it, it was so much better that I barely noticed any small issues.

My take is that if one looks for problems on a pedal steel, one can find them. My preferred approach is to get things reasonably good, and then learn to adapt to the small issues - there will always be some.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail

Helmut Gragger


From:
Austria
Post  Posted 22 Jun 2021 8:55 am    
Reply with quote

Peter,

thats very interesting thoughts.

I have no experience with those dampers, they belong to things that have keys. Damn those white and black keys. Wink

If this has a pot in it, it is trivial to adapt it basically. However, I do not know, what a keyboard player does with it in practise. Does he change volume in a perceived linear manner as the steeler does it?
Does this device exhibit a perceived linear volume change with a given distance displacement on that lever?

Sure one´s muscle memory can be trained for that, as much as Jerry Byrd used his volume backwards.

I agree with you on the "car accelerator pedal" feeling. They have designed those pedals to have an angle (presumably in the half pressed position) that you will perceive as relaxing, so that you can maintain it for long periods without getting tired.
Sitting in a car your lower leg will have a certain angle forward, accordingly the accelerator pedal has an angle.

However the volume pedal under the steel has to have a totally different "zero" position, rather straight. And I understand that modern specialized volume pedals do account for that.

To get the pedal working I use (as described in the article) I had to add a spacer in the heel position.
This makes a hell of a difference, and I can only recommend to play with that. The fact that it has always been like that does not mean it has always been good.

With the idea I had the mule *does* disappear, well not into the ground, but is lowered relative to the rest.
This is extremely simple for a PSG, with just the footrest you need extra, however for your 6 string guitar stage you would definitely need a sturdy pedestal if you placed your full body weight on it. But again, a piece of wood would do, and you´d have both feet on the same plane. AND it would more or less work for any commercial pedal. You may want to even tilt this one slightly forward down, because that is a very comfortable movement for a person standing balanced on both feet.
_________________
feel at home at: http://me.aquataur.guru


Last edited by Helmut Gragger on 22 Jun 2021 9:01 am; edited 1 time in total
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website

Karl Paulsen

 

From:
Chicago
Post  Posted 22 Jun 2021 9:00 am    
Reply with quote

Interesting discussion.
I'm a relatively new player and I think I've never experienced any of these difficulties because my steel and seat were both ordered with my height in mind and I have a Hilton Low-Profile volume pedal.

I don't know their exact heights but I provided my height to the makers of each. The seat is higher than standard and the Encore has a lift kit. The height of volume and foot pedals seems quite similar, though of course my heel is lower on the foot pedals.

Also, there's plenty of leeway between the top of my legs and the steel so that I get good mechanical advantage when operating the knee levers. It is quite a high steel though to the point that shorter players may find it impossible to use my vertical lever.
_________________
Nickel and Steel. Sad Songs and Steel Guitar.
https://www.facebook.com/NickelandSteel

Chicago Valley Railroad. Trainspotting and Bargain Hunting...
https://chicagovalleyrailroad.blogspot.com/
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website

Helmut Gragger


From:
Austria
Post  Posted 22 Jun 2021 9:15 am    
Reply with quote

I needed a 4cm raiser kit right to be basically able to play, with the vertical within reach.

As soon as I added the volume, I was bumping into the undercarriage. Impossible to play.

The volume is 4cm high, so what I would have needed was another 4cm kit, which I did not have. I had another 2cm extensions.

This was a concession to the volume pedal, but my knees were into the acorn nuts where the levers are mounted. Impossible to play.

Even at this elevation, the difference between the legs was increasing and creating discomfort on the rim of the seat on the left upper leg, letting alone a 8 cm rise.

With the setup I now have, all those problems are solved. I guess, it gets dramatically worse the taller your are.

@dave:
Just saw I missed your post. I understand this was your attempt to cancel out the volume pedal. It would certainly not easily work with a footrest that crooked. I believe the footrest would work for any number of pedals.Yes you can get used to everything. I had to find a solution and this worked for me. win-win.
_________________
feel at home at: http://me.aquataur.guru
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website


All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Jump to:  

Our Online Catalog
Strings, CDs, instruction,
steel guitars & accessories

www.SteelGuitarShopper.com

Please review our Forum Rules and Policies

Steel Guitar Forum LLC
PO Box 237
Mount Horeb, WI 53572 USA


Click Here to Send a Donation

Email admin@steelguitarforum.com for technical support.


BIAB Styles
Ray Price Shuffles for
Band-in-a-Box

by Jim Baron
HTTP