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Author Topic:  Ultimate made from scratch pedal steel, what parts?
Pete Burak

 

From:
Portland, OR USA
Post  Posted 14 Jun 2021 1:39 pm    
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Ken Pippus wrote:
Yup. Too many moving parts. Too many levers. Bad design. And OMG! Keyless tuning! Explains why this guy sounded so s****y.

Shame he didn’t just play a Bigsby. Or a Telecaster!



May be a little excess navel-gazing going on here.


fwiw, Sierra came up with their own thing and did not follow the industry standard. Pretty cool that the number one guy in the industry endorsed them.
Buddy made a professional video with that Steel.
Here it is:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1mGUk7CGraM


Last edited by Pete Burak on 14 Jun 2021 1:44 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Donny Hinson

 

From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
Post  Posted 14 Jun 2021 1:44 pm    
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Chris Lucker wrote:
It explains why he said the "Wagon" Wraparound was the best sounding pedal steel he ever played.


Well, the truth is that he said that about a lot of different guitars. And that's true for many players, their tastes change with time as they experience new instruments and seek out new sounds. Their ears mature, as does their musical style, so their choice of "best" can be constantly in flux.
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Donny Hinson

 

From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
Post  Posted 14 Jun 2021 2:01 pm    
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Paul Leoni wrote:
Do we all assume that maximum sustain is what we are going for?


No, some of us have gotten over the "sustain is everything" virus that seems to affect players when they can't see that their "problem" really isn't in the guitar. There's also a common misconception that adding pedals, levers, and more strings makes us a "better player". Nothing could be further from the truth.

What you are playing has very little to do with how good you are. I wish that weren't so, but it's an immutable truth. And the sooner we all realize that, the better.
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Chris Lucker

 

From:
Los Angeles, California USA
Post  Posted 14 Jun 2021 2:05 pm    
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Oh, I did not know he said the same about many guitars. I only knew that he said it about his first Wraparound, which is why he was wanting one in his later years. I owned Number Two (January 1964) which is the first Emmons to leave the Factory and the guitar Buddie Emmons (1964 so not Buddy yet) is playing in the blue brochure. I offered to give it to him, but he declined the gift and thought it would be too expensive to buy.
Interesting guitar. It is easy to identify in photos because of the taller single coil and it being the only Wraparound where the pickup is not mounted to the neck -- suspended from the neck by the adjustment screws.
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Chris Lucker
Red Bellies, Bigsbys and a lot of other guitars.
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Kelcey ONeil


From:
Sevierville, TN
Post  Posted 14 Jun 2021 6:57 pm    
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Paul Leoni wrote:
Tone in any electric guitar is completely determined by the rigidity between the two attaching point of the string. Any solid body guitar is going to sound extremely similar. Tone? Pickups and rigidity of the string attaching points. Want to really affect tone where you can immediately hear it? Try a lightweight vs big heavy bar *that* will affect tone and sustain. There is no reason not to use ball bearings other than economy and there I feel the gain is worth the trade.


On something of an aside,
Comparisons between fretted Spanish style guitars(electric or not) and steel guitars are of limited usefulness, about like comparing Dolly Parton and Zooey Deschanel based on shoe sizes... 😀Steel guitars are not played( or constructed) in the same way as Spanish guitars, and do not fill the same roles in music; there is maybe the fact(most) are electric instruments and that’s about it. The steel is a sustaining instrument by nature( hence the slide) and therefore requires a different approach.

The pickup is only of limited value to the equation if the platform to which it is attached is of dubious quality, the man himself( Buddy) was apparently in the habit of strumming the strings open before he ever plugged it in to asses the quality of the sound( this is how he famously christened the “Horn of Plenty”, according to legend...). Also, to use the Telecaster example given, it is almost always the lightest examples that produce the best tone and sustain, the reason being the body is more free to resonate acoustically and transfer this energy back to the pickup. If there is a commonality between the two, it’s that the better the body resonates the better it will almost always sound. A GOOD steel guitar will vibrate the floor it’s setting on, which is indicative of a sympathetic resonance throughout the entire instrument which actually is producing its own tone, which is why so much emphasis has been made on this post about uncluttering the guitar for better tone. So, there is quite a bit more to what’s between the nut and the “bridge” than just the pickup.

Lastly, ball bearings and other multi-piece components represent potential lost energy at the very least, and no discernible gain mechanically given the very small range of motion steel guitars produce. I feel this way because I once set out to “improve” many a design in this way and ended up at best just wasting my time. I even went so far as to leave stock bronze bearings and install “upgraded” ball bearing shaft inserts in the same guitar. My disappointment was such that I’ve not used a ball bearing since! For the record, bronze Oilite bearings used in many guitars over the years are designed to be used for electric motor output shafts turning over 1000 RPM, the 1/4 rotation presented to it on a PSG is essentially an insignificant figure. As for ball bearing changers, the string fingers and axle represent the strings only effective way to maintain its energy when plucked, and since this can only happen by direct contact, a ball bearing insert actually represents a mechanical disadvantage at this point. Also, I’ve disassembled changers that were over 50 years old with direct steel on aluminum contact, that had no appreciable wear of any kind, much less were they worn out. There are numerous and consistent examples of great sounding steels without them, and none that I’m aware of that would widely qualify as great with them.
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Chris Lucker

 

From:
Los Angeles, California USA
Post  Posted 14 Jun 2021 11:52 pm    
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Interesting. Maximum sustain is something I never thought about in a pedal steel. That is why I prefer the sound of an Emmons Wraparound, which is the only Emmons where the changer is not solidly attached to the endplates.
It is a floating Stratocaster vs a hardtail Les Paul thing. A wraparound has overtones you don’t get with solidly mounted bridges/changers. Overtones.
If you want a solidly mounted bridge, go outside and string up your driveway. Tell me how you like the tone.
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Chris Lucker
Red Bellies, Bigsbys and a lot of other guitars.
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Pete Burak

 

From:
Portland, OR USA
Post  Posted 15 Jun 2021 5:09 am    
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I often wonder... If "Blocking" is so important, why is "Sustain" so important?
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Ross Shafer


From:
Petaluma, California
Post  Posted 15 Jun 2021 6:28 am    
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This thread started out as a different discussion "who does what best and why?" is the original question put up for discussion.

Seems its changed to a tone/design/economics discussion...all are very interesting to me as building these wacky things is what I do full time. I've been involved with design/engineering/manufacturing/biz management/sales/marketing game since I was 20 (closing in on 46 years).

I agree with numerous comments about simplicity, tone production and other things that have been said, but bold statements like:"The thing is, this can be done with a lot more simplicity, less parts and less cost" pretty much mean nothing without more info on how and/or some bonafides showing the experience to back up such blanket pronouncements. I believe this statement could have some merit, but only in a substantially larger (WAY larger!) market. The dough it takes to achieve that statement is by no means insubstantial.

As Dan Kelly pointed out I spent a lot of time (3.5 years) in the R&D phase of the current Sierra Steels. My main goals were good tone, reliability, ease of use for the player, serviceability and adjustability...all with an eye toward simplifying as many of the mechanisms and doo hickeys as possible. My customers, many of those who've tried these rigs and even myself (I'm my harshest critic believe me!) are of the opinion that my efforts were pretty successful.

Believe it or not, simplifying things with the goal of improved function does not necessarily mean more economical. The old Sierra changer had somewhere around 35 parts per string. The new changer has 5....that's some pretty aggressive simplification, but doing so adds a lot of mfg. cost since it just takes more time and tools to do....(not to mention the many months and $ it took to finalize my design)

The ONLY thing that will ever make pedal steels more affordable, simpler and available for the masses....are masses. The current size of the market is the big limitation in all pedal steel development. Any discussion on improving or making our beloved instrument more affordable that doesn't acknowledge the miniscule size of the market is purely theoretical at best.

I apologize in advance if I've stepped on any toes or am sounding like a broken record. I'll continue to follow this discussion with interest as the opinions and ideas of those within the market I serve are important whether I agree or not.


Last edited by Ross Shafer on 15 Jun 2021 1:58 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Pete Burak

 

From:
Portland, OR USA
Post  Posted 15 Jun 2021 6:53 am    
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If I won a big Lottery (or some other financial fantasy occurred like Bill Gates becoming a huge Emmons fan), I would gladly put the best Emmons Push Pull design back into mass production and happily give them away.
I hope somebody does that someday.
I surprised that nobody besides Promat has ever taken over and made open-to-the-public production of the Emmons Push Pull.
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Jimmie Hudson

 

From:
North Carolina, USA
Post  Posted 15 Jun 2021 12:51 pm     best guitar
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For The best sounding and playing guitar.
Use less parts and less moving parts.
The more parts you add to a pedal steel the worse it will sound. And the sustain will suffer with more parts added.

And try not to get a Blond hair in the clear coat. The guitar will have a ding batt sound in it at the 48th fret.
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Donny Hinson

 

From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
Post  Posted 15 Jun 2021 1:28 pm    
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Chris Lucker wrote:
Oh, I did not know he said the same about many guitars. I only knew that he said it about his first Wraparound, which is why he was wanting one in his later years...


Here's a couple of Buddy's comments I could find quickly, but I know there are one or two more out there:

Quote:
I was playing a Sho~Bud when I took the job with ET. But I loved the sound and feel of the Fender 1000 for C6 work.(7/25/04)


Quote:


My only regret was selling the Sierra. It’s has been my favorite C6 guitar but I rarely played it so I felt I had no use for it.(7/15/05)
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Chris Lucker

 

From:
Los Angeles, California USA
Post  Posted 15 Jun 2021 10:40 pm    
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Thanks for posting that Donny. Apparently, I did not ask him the right questions, and from your post, you did.
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Chris Lucker
Red Bellies, Bigsbys and a lot of other guitars.
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Kelcey ONeil


From:
Sevierville, TN
Post  Posted 16 Jun 2021 4:30 am    
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I think Ross has really said a mouthful, especially regarding simplicity AND cost. Just because something is mechanically simple doesn’t mean it’s simple to produce. For instance, the Emmons Push Pull changer is a very simple design(and an essential part of its sound) compared to the later Legrande style changer, however the all pull changer would have been much easier to produce( and therefore cheaper) considering the machining and materials required.

The genius of Ross’ changer is that in principle, it is VERY simple and therefore efficient; however, as a machinist myself, I can tell you that it would be no simple task to produce it. So in regard to the original query, cheap can sometimes equal simple, but simple by no means equates to cheap; and starting with good tone and refining the mechanics rather than building a machine and attempting to inject tone into it is probably the way to go.
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Andrew Goulet


Post  Posted 16 Jun 2021 4:40 am    
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Chris Lucker wrote:

If you want a solidly mounted bridge, go outside and string up your driveway. Tell me how you like the tone.


Here in eclectic Western MA, I could string up a driveway, perform a half hour set and get a rousing round of applause.
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Pete Burak

 

From:
Portland, OR USA
Post  Posted 16 Jun 2021 5:07 am    
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I am hoping someone will buy the Emmons company in it's entirety, and bring it back to life.
I have seen it done before with other brands.
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Paul Leoni

 

From:
Mississippi, USA
Post  Posted 16 Jun 2021 5:22 am    
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I sense agreement based on the disagreement.
"Methinks the peddlers doth protest a bit too much"
(-:
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Ross Shafer


From:
Petaluma, California
Post  Posted 16 Jun 2021 6:51 am    
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Paul Leoni wrote:
I sense agreement based on the disagreement.
"Methinks the peddlers doth protest a bit too much"
(-:


?....to cryptic for this old fart....
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Jerry Overstreet


From:
Louisville Ky
Post  Posted 18 Jun 2021 2:36 pm    
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Chris Lucker wrote:
Interesting. Maximum sustain is something I never thought about in a pedal steel. That is why I prefer the sound of an Emmons Wraparound, which is the only Emmons where the changer is not solidly attached to the endplates.
It is a floating Stratocaster vs a hardtail Les Paul thing. A wraparound has overtones you don’t get with solidly mounted bridges/changers. Overtones.
If you want a solidly mounted bridge, go outside and string up your driveway. Tell me how you like the tone.


Interesting comments Chris. Surprising in that the bolts seem to be the holy grail of Emmons tone. Curious that you prefer the wraps.

[...never mind, after re-reading your post and Buddy's comments re: the guitar's creation and different changer models, I think I got it.]
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Paul Leoni

 

From:
Mississippi, USA
Post  Posted 25 Jun 2021 5:51 pm    
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Oh, I daresay simplicity would lead to cost savings, and a less costly and simple unit will produce more new players.

And I daresay the "tone" of the wood will not be an important factor. Wood fine, other things also fine. Wood is probably the best bet economically. At least it was until our current affliction. Energy lost or kept and the pickup will determine overall tone. Mechanics will affect intonation between target notes. In other words, "tone" (timbre) and ADSR will be the easy part.
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