Troubleshooting 1970's MSA tuning

Ben Feldman · From: Spokane, WA

Hi all, if you have clicked on this to offer some guidance, I recommend scrolling to the bottom and looking only at the most recent post. Some of the issues I was having below have already been solved.

I'm having some difficulty getting a pedal in tune on a 1970's MSA Double 12 that I recently bought. This is my first pedal steel, so apologies for my naivete in these matters.

Pedal in question is P8, currently set up:

-Raise string 7 from C to C#
-Lower string 9 from F to E
-Lower string 10 from C to A

BUT I can't seem to get that C to lower all the way to A. At most it goes a whole step, but not yet 3 half steps.

I've tried to adjust the pedal stop screw, but it won't budge. As I learned in an email from Tom Bradshaw this is a common problem with MSA's from the 70's. He told me, once all the pedals were working, assembler would take a punch and fracture the outside of aluminum strip that those Allen-head screws were in. I guess that person punched this one too hard. Fixing tuning problem with pedal stop adjustment is not an option for me right now.

Do you have any other thoughts on how to adjust the amount of pull I'm getting on string 10?

If itÂ has something toÂ do with the angle of how pullÂ rods attach the bell cranks and changer end plate, I will describe what I am looking at here. (Sorry if I am over-explaining). Each bell crank has 4 levels (holes) for pull pins. I will call the one furthest from the cabinet/closest to the floor hole #4. The hole closest to the cabinet I'll call hole #1. The end plate by the changer also has 4 levels of hole for pull rod to pass through. I'll refer to these by letter rather than number: The hole closest to the cabinet I will call the "A hole", and the one closest to floor I will call to the "D hole". Wink

-On string 7, we go from hole #2 on the bell crank to the B hole on the changer.
-String 9, we go from hole #3 to C hole.
-String 10, we go from hole #4 hole to C.

Seems like this should allow for plenty of pitch change on string 10. Why might this string 10 change not be working properly if the other changes are doing fine?

Any input would be greatly appreciated. Since buying this steel a couple weeks ago, I haven't even started to learn how to play C6 because I've been spending all my free time staring at the undercarriage in confusion!

Ian Rae · From: Redditch, England

Meanwhile, get playing. You won't need that low A for a while yet.

If all other advice comes to nothing, a heavier gauge string might just do it.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs

Richard Sinkler · From: aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana

That's a strange setup on that pedal. Normally the pedal lowers string 10 to A, 9 to E, and raises string 7 to C#, not lowering G to F#
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, NV400, NV112 . Playing for 54 years and still counting.

Ben Feldman · From: Spokane, WA

Ian, thanks for your advice. For me, playing is a lot more fun than tinkering. If the thicker string gauge doesn't work, I could also just put a low A string on the guitar!! It's a double 12 with nothing on string 11 or 12.

Richard, thank you for catching that! That is my mistake. (Wrote this very late last night). I will correct this in the original post.

Jon Light · From: Saugerties, NY

Check to be sure that the changer finger for string 10 is fully at rest and not already being pulled by the rod/nylon tuning nut without the pedal being engaged (as per the graphic and the general concepts being discussed on my Overtuning post pinned to the top of this page.) If it is already started pulling the changer, back the nylon nut off and retune the string to C.

Another factor that can be evaluated (photos would really help) is the position of the bellcrank on the round cross shaft. If the bellcrank is at rest, pointing straight to the floor (12 o'clock)....well the ideal pulling zone would be a sweep of roughly 11 o'clock to 1 o'clock. So loosening the screw holding it to the shaft and pivoting the crank until it achieves that sweep (instead of, say, 12 -- 2 or 1 - 3 o'clock) could possibly gain you some leverage.

Ben Feldman · From: Spokane, WA

Jon, this piece you have written on overturning is very educational, especially for a newbie like me. Thank you for directing me towards that, and thank you for posting. I suspect itâ€™s relevant to the issue at hand (and to the E9 issue i will describe in subsequent post), but Iâ€™m not yet sure how.

When looking at the undercarriage, I see that these bell cranks are currently located at about 12 o clock and only move to about 1 o clock. (Photos attached) Iâ€™m not sure how to tell if the changer if the fingers on the changer are returning to an at rest position, nor how to adjust this. Seems like some of the fingers for raising strings are pushed out. (Photos included). I should mention that Iâ€™m changing the strings on the right now, not sure if that would affect tension in the undercarriage. There were no strings on the C6 neck when these photos were taken.

P8 at rest

P8 engaged

P8 pedal attachment (plate slightly bent)

I am going to put new strings on C6 neck and try adjusting the angle of the bell crank per Jonâ€™s recommendation. It still doesnâ€™t seem like that bell crank is moving much but hopefully that will solve this P8 C->A issue.

Ben Feldman · From: Spokane, WA

I am now experiencing a slightly more urgent problem with the E9 neck (more urgent because I play E9, but not yet C6) Smile

Last night I changed the strings on the E9 neck (first time ever doing this to a PSG). Prior to this, all changes on E9 neck were in tune. The new strings sound great, but I am now having a problem with raising string 4. LKL (e flat lever) works on both string 4 and 8. The F lever only works on string 8, nothing happens to string 4. Likewise, the C pedal now only raises string 4 a half step. C pedal works fine on string 5. What did I do wrong? Surprised

Any and all advice would be greatly appreciated. Iâ€™m really out of my element, and yâ€™all have been very generous with your input already.

I suspect this is probably something with the changer, so Iâ€™ve included some photos here. Again, not really sure where to start with this one.

E9 changer:

E9 tuning pegs.

Jon Light · From: Saugerties, NY

Just a few things--

Yes, without string tension, the changer can get out of line. It is nothing. But it does mean that you cannot draw any conclusions or make any adjustments until the strings are on.

Regarding the bellcrank angles.....in retrospect, IMO this is a fine-tuning tweak. It will yield a small degree of extra leverage. In my opinion there is no getting around needing to be able to adjust the pedal stop to get more pull out of the pedal, if that is where it is falling short.

I just can't say anything about the new 4th string issue. Without eyes and hands-on, I can only do disservice by guessing.

Jerry Overstreet · From: Louisville Ky

I can see an issue with the changer.

String 4 raise finger, indicated in red, is pulled away from the stop. It should be in line with the others. Follow Jon's overtuning sticky instructions. If you changed string gauges on 4, that may have contributed to your issue.

Maybe just the angle, but string 2, yellow, might need the lower return spring tensioned a little tighter. Probably not as big a deal unless you are both lowering and raising 2.

Jon Light · From: Saugerties, NY

A point of confusion that makes photos difficult for me to read is that this is a 12 string guitar strung as a 10. I always have trouble looking at an upsidedown guitar and figuring out which neck is which, let alone which is string 1, which is string 10, and now, which 2 fingers are missing the strings.

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Ben, your guitar is seriously over-tuned! String 2 lower and string 4 raise on E9th are over-tuned. On your C6th practically every raise, as well as a couple lowers look over-tuned. You won't be able to get anything working properly until your changer fingers (at rest) are all against stop-plate, and in a nice orderly straight line...looking like this:

Ben...edit - (the sentence in italics) I just noticed you said there were no strings on C6th when you took that photo, and you can't tell much about a guitar without strings, so you can ignore that. I do like to point out that most tuning problems are brought about by players over-tuning their guitars. Whenever anything goes amuck with tuning, changing stop screws and puller angles and holes is about the last thing you want to do. Without a doubt, operator error is the most frequent problem I see.

Plenty of players in Washington, and I'm sure there's one nearby that can put you on the right track. In the meantime, put some penetrating oil on that stubborn stop screw, and always use top-quality hex (Allen) wrenches! When you start stripping (rounding out) the hexes, then you create problems on top of problems.

Ben Feldman · From: Spokane, WA

Thanks, folks. I'd be hopelessly lost without you. To clarify, this double 12 is currently only using strings 1-10. Jerry and Donny, you are correct in identifying that strings 2 and 4 were way over tuned! (and thank you again, Jon, for your post) I've de-tuned both of the string 2 lowers and string 4 raises and it has helped a lot. F lever now works like a dream.

Trouble is, I still can't quite get the string 2 (RKR) to lower an entire whole step or string 4 (C pedal) to raise a whole step, before those open strings start to return sharp/flat. How should I address this problem?

Is this a matter of adjusting the pedal stop on C pedal? (I Should mention that String 5 on C pedal works fine) Or adjusting the lever stop on RKR? (Haven't yet identified this mechanism for levers but I'll do some research) Or would it be better to adjust angles of the bell cranks?

My apologies if these questions reveal me for the simpleton I am. I've only been playing steel for about 6 months.

In order to avoid confusion, I have deleted the photo of C6 changer fingers without strings on. I will update once the bell crank on string 10 of c6 neck is re-angled.

Thanks again.

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Ben Feldman · From: Spokane, WA

Hey all, thanks again for your input here. VERY helpful thus far!! (Many of my pedals were over tuned)

One change I am still having trouble with is P8. The whole pedal is very difficult to press (lots of resistance) and I suspect it has something to do with the "boo wah" change on string 10. When I step on P8, string 10 engages first lower the finger, then the raise AND lower finger move at the same time. (photos below. this guitar was originally a d12 so string 10 is identified with the yellow arrow. If photos with better lighting/a different angle would be more helpful, please let me know.)

I can't get string 10 C note to drop all the way to A. It lowers to A#, then starts to raise in pitch. Before I do something drastic like stretch the return spring or take apart the entire changer and clean each finger, is there anything else I could look at to remedy this problem? I tried putting some LPS-1 on the changer but that didn't do much for this change. P8 String 10 is on hole 4 at the bell crank, hole C at the changer. The bell crank swings from about 10/11 o clock to noon when the pedal is engaged.

P8 at rest (string 10 highlighted. strings 11+12 are not strung, hence activated raise fingers)

P8 engaged (")

Ben Feldman · From: Spokane, WA

TTT. Does anybody have a recommendation of something I should be looking at with P8 (described in previous post)? Or should I begin with taking apart the changer and cleaning it, then seeing if there's something else to be done?

Any suggestions greatly appreciated.

Jerry Overstreet · From: Louisville Ky

Hey Ben. Take a look at the pedal stop for P8. You might just need more travel there for string 10 to reach the intended note. Then you will have to touch up your other changes on the pedal.

Not being familiar with the old MSAs, I'm not entirely sure if they have the conventional pedal stops at the cabinet rail.

Ben Feldman · From: Spokane, WA

Thanks, Jerry! Is it normal for P8 to feel like there is much more resistance than the other pedals (3 string changes, lots of travel) ?

Jerry Overstreet · From: Louisville Ky

Yes, it's going to be a little stiffer than the others probably. It should not be too severe though. You can adjust the bell crank and changer positions of the pull rods, but that might cause more problems than it solves due to the travel that is needed.

Ben Feldman · From: Spokane, WA

Thanks, Jerry. I tried turning the pedal stop before but it wouldn't budge (Tom Bradshaw thinks this may be due to an error in manufacture). I'll put some LPS-1 on and see if it's any easier to turn after that stuff soaks in. If not, I may need to replace the aluminum strip where the pedal stop screws are...

Jon Light · From: Saugerties, NY

Which changer hole are you in on 10? A very contradictory situation I have encountered that I cannot explain but that has occurred more than once on more than one guitar is where on a very long pull (lowering E9 wound 6th string a whole step) I have used the hole for maximum leverage/movement (the changer hole closest to the strings ) and I've had this issue where the lower only goes so far and then the raise starts moving. Changing to the less advantageous hole has resulted in more available pitch change before the raise engages. I may have seen an explanation for this here on the SGF but I can't remember.
Also, if there is a raise-helper spring, disengage it.

Ultimately, not being able to adjust the pedal stop might be an insurmountable issue. But you might look at whether you can adjust the pedal start (or the pull start -- when the bellcrank starts pulling the pull rod)

Jerry Overstreet · From: Louisville Ky

I'm looking at your pic with the arrow pointing to the lowered string 10 finger. It sure appears that there's a lot of travel there, although that may not be the case.

Also, you state the pedal is very hard to press. It should not be as difficult as you describe.

Earlier, I stated that pedal would be stiffer, but I just sat down at the Carter and I can't tell much difference between pedal 5 and pedal 8 or really any of the pedals with multiple pulls.

Because you state the lower activates then begins to raise, I can't be sure it's a travel issue unless the pressure is causing the raise finger to overcome the lower.

Unfortunately, I can't suggest any other fixes if the prior suggestions from everybody have had no effect.

All I can suggest is to plop it upside down and observe components as you operate them by hand....and that's probably what you have been doing.

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Al Evans · From: Austin, Texas, USA

Jon Light · From: Saugerties, NY

Johnie King · From: Tennessee, USA

Older MSA changer's sometimes needs too be taken apart an cleaned too work properly.
That's a fact.
Good thing about a Blanton steels ::: knife edge changer they don't use a axel.

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