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Author Topic:  1974 Emmons facelift
Don Mogle

 

From:
Round Rock, TX, USA
Post  Posted 9 Apr 2021 9:25 am    
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Scott,

Anymore recent pictures of the progress on your Emmons. I would like to see how it looks with lacquer finish and/or the final product.

Thanks,

Don
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Scott Moon


From:
Canyon Lake, TX
Post  Posted 9 Apr 2021 10:48 am    
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I’ll try to get some updates this weekend. I’m basically waiting on lacquer to cure before sanding and polishing. I’m working on polishing the aluminum parts. Stay tuned.
Scott
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Chris Lucker

 

From:
Los Angeles, California USA
Post  Posted 9 Apr 2021 5:31 pm    
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How long does it take before you can sand lacquer? Does it matter if it is a clear coat, tinted or color? I mean does the pigment slow down the process?
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Chris Lucker
Red Bellies, Bigsbys and a lot of other guitars.
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Scott Moon


From:
Canyon Lake, TX
Post  Posted 9 Apr 2021 5:38 pm    
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Depending on how many coats. And it doesn’t matter whether it’s tinted or clear. I will let it cure for 15 days or so. If you don’t you will have scratches you can’t get out.
Once it’s cured I’ll wet sand from about 800 to 2000. Then polishing compound. Medium, fine then swirl remover. Hopefully it will look like glass if all goes well.
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Scott Moon


From:
Canyon Lake, TX
Post  Posted 11 Apr 2021 7:10 am    
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Here’s where she’s at right now. Lacquer curing and working on the aluminum parts.







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Don Mogle

 

From:
Round Rock, TX, USA
Post  Posted 11 Apr 2021 12:19 pm    
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Looks great Scott! Thanks for sharing how it looks right now. Keep the pictures coming. I love this stuff!

Don
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Jim Sliff


From:
Lawndale California, USA
Post  Posted 12 Apr 2021 7:47 am    
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Regarding lacquer "cure time":

Lacquer does NOT cure unless it's a catalyzed type. Conventional nitrocellulose and acrylic lacquers dry ONLY by evaporation, and each coat dries in 30-60 minutes if applied properly.

Sealers, primer, pigmented, transparent toner, clear - makes NO difference.

And lacquer - except sandable primers and sanding sealers - should never be sanded between coats (except to fix small runs ) and finish wet sanding of clear coats is only done if the application is inconsistent. It's a repair process, not part of normal application (except for a very few specialty finish processes done by long-time professionals).

Lacquer systems are taken straight to the buffing wheel (not a rotary car buffer - a fixed wheel) , with 2-4 different stick-type buffing compounds, using a clean cotton wheel for each.

If you apply the final clear coat in the morning you can usually buff that afternoon- and you're ready for assembly.

The most common problem in finishing is impatience - people simply will not take the time to perform practice applications on scrap until they have perfected their techniques, so most amateurs and many "professionals" never learn to do it right, commonly "fixing" bad work by wet sanding. Those who have learned properly can easily apply and buff a complete lacquer system from scratch in 3-4 days! I've finished hundreds of guitars and never taken longer than 4 days if the temperature and humidity are within manufacturer's parameters.

The only common retail "lacquers" that are exceptions are Deft and Colortone, which are lacquer enamels - blends of lacquer and oil based alkyd enamel. They can take from days to weeks for full evaporation of solvents and additives. Many amateurs and newer "semi-professionals" use the Stewary-McDonald finishing guide as a reference, but it only applies to their Colortone products - NOT conventional lacquers. It also references "cure time", which is a major technical error and common misconception.

I was in technical support for manufacturers for over 30 years; managed 100-man crews for a coatings contracting firm for 7 years, trained applicators for 20+ years and consulted for contractors, corporations, architects, theme parks and others - in addition to doing instrument finishing since 1971.

It still amazes me how much misinformation is still thought of as standard procedures. It's absurd.
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional


Last edited by Jim Sliff on 12 Apr 2021 1:22 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Erv Niehaus


From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
Post  Posted 12 Apr 2021 8:22 am    
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I like to use the nitrocellulose lacquer sold by Guitar ReRanch. I have refinished several steel guitars with their rattle cans, and like Jim stated, there is practically no drying time involved between coats. What I like about lacquer, you can touch up between coats with no over spray, the new lacquer blends right in with the old lacquer. Very Happy
Erv
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Jim Sliff


From:
Lawndale California, USA
Post  Posted 12 Apr 2021 1:44 pm    
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Good points Erv - lacquer systems actually end up as one coat of material, as each coat melts into the preceding coat. It's virtually impossible to tell how many coats have been applied - and nitrocellulose and acrylic lacquers can be applied over each other. The resins are thoroughly compatible and the same solvents are used.

Some lacquers are actually blends of "nitro" and acrylic, and you have no way of knowing. Nitrocellulose resin (aka cellulose nitrate) MUST be lited on the product's MSDS as it is a hazardous material - but acrylic resins are not hazardous and are usually NOT listed, even if they are in the product!

Some manufacturers list acrylic resin on the MSDS anyway - but it's not required.

The one thing to be very careful of when performing any kind of touch up and repair of runs or finish sanding is to NOT sand through a color coat to a sealer; or through the clear coat(s) into the color or toner.

The repair application will melt into the lower coat, "pulling" some of it into the newly applied material. This creates odd looking "clouds"(sometimes called "floaters")with foggy edges. Unfortunately there in no repair other than 1) sanding down to a perfectly consistent color surface (nearly impossible) - or 2) stripping and starting over.

This is a good example of why practice, practice, practice is the best "technique preparation" you can do. learn, make mistakes, get frustrated, ask questions and REFINE your application through practice.

You'll save money, save time, get better results and NOT end up posting one of the many threads titled "Help! I think I messed up my lacquer job!" on a finishing forum!

Whoa!
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional
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Erv Niehaus


From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
Post  Posted 12 Apr 2021 1:57 pm    
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Jim,
Guitar ReRanch will not deliver nitrocellulose lacquer to California. Sad
Erv
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Chris Lucker

 

From:
Los Angeles, California USA
Post  Posted 12 Apr 2021 2:06 pm    
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Jim, how would you characterize or categorize the finish Bigsby used -- Xylonite or Zylonite?
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Chris Lucker
Red Bellies, Bigsbys and a lot of other guitars.
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Jim Sliff


From:
Lawndale California, USA
Post  Posted 12 Apr 2021 2:42 pm    
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ReRanch has had all sorts of problems recently - sometimes closed; saying they can't ship non-aerosol cans of lacquer due to DOT regulations (which is silly, otherwise Rockler, Sherwin Williams and independent professional contractor-oriented stores would have no inventory of quarts or gallons!) and weird statement about cure times.

I've never discovered who actually makes their products, but I sincerely doubt they are a manufacturing facility.

As far a shipping to California, it may be that they jut don't want to deal with the required monthly sales tracking of VOC's (Volatile Organic Compound - the pollutant) that The Air Resources Board and most of the Air Quality Management and Air Pollution Control districts require.

It's too bad, as they have most Fender Custom Color packaged for them. But aerosol application is monstrously expensive and spray tips are inaccurate. You can buy a decent non-bleeder HVLP turbine and gun nowadays for $200-250. Avoid the "bleeder" units - they run the air all the time, which can mess up the finish, low dust around etc. Stick with non-bleeders.

Then you can buy lacquer in quarts in contractor paint stores and either tint colors yourself using universal colorants, or some stores will tint it for you.

With an HVLP you'll have almost zero overspray and tremendous control. Professionals and experienced amateurs rarely use aerosols - I only use them when I'm lazy and don't want to bust out one of my HVLP's, or I just have a tiny fix to perform.

But - you can get many aerosols on Amazon; or in professional contractor stores that stock Mohawk; and even have packs of 6 or 12 custom made to your color spec by a few manufacturers.

But if you finish more than one or two instruments a year you'll get far better results and save money buying a compact non-bleeder HVLP Turbine, hose, gun and lacquer type needle and cap

DO NOT get suckered into buying a spray gun that's labeled "HVLP" at Harbor Freight and hook it up to your compressor. That's just a poor air-spray setup, not an HVLP - and you need a HUGE compressor to even keep the material pressure up - you'll have lines ("tails") at both the top and bottom of your pattern and it'll look terrible!
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional
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Jim Sliff


From:
Lawndale California, USA
Post  Posted 13 Apr 2021 1:01 pm    
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Chris, if you ever chew on your eyeglass frames you're chewing on Zylonite -aka cellulose acetate- a very cheap plastic (which really is ridiculous when you consider the cost of eyeglass frames!)

It's a plastic made from natural materials - wood fiber and cotton. It's usually molded, but in the 40's and 50's it was diluted with solvents (alcohol and others) plus flow agent additives to make coatings somewhat like lacquer.

But it much lower solvent resistance and the thin film coating form becomes brittle as the flow agents (plasticizers) leach out over time. It's rarely used as a coating bow becautof problems with high VOC emissions - ie air quality issues.

Bigsbys are the only steels I know of that were coated with it. I would not suggest any touchup or refinishing, as it will lower the value (especially refinishing).
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional
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Chris Lucker

 

From:
Los Angeles, California USA
Post  Posted 13 Apr 2021 1:12 pm    
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I would not call a Bigsby finish brittle. In fact, if you even find weather-checking in A Bigsby finish, it is a giveaway that the finish has been redone with nitro. Black light too.
From my experience, the 70+ - 60 year old Zylonite finished Bigsbys have held up far better than other guitar finishes.
_________________
Chris Lucker
Red Bellies, Bigsbys and a lot of other guitars.
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Scott Moon


From:
Canyon Lake, TX
Post  Posted 30 Apr 2021 7:54 am    
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The ol axe is all polished out and may I say it turned out really nice. It's all packed up and I will be delivering it to Rick next week for assembly. Photos coming soon I hope....stay tuned!
Scott
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Scott Moon


From:
Canyon Lake, TX
Post  Posted 20 May 2021 2:29 pm     Finished
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Well here she is in all her glory!








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Lee Baucum


From:
McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier
Post  Posted 20 May 2021 3:07 pm    
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You and Rick did a great job.

That is a beautiful guitar.
_________________
Lee, from South Texas - Down On The Rio Grande

There are only two options as I see it.
Either I'm right, or there is a sinister conspiracy to conceal the fact that I'm right.


Williams Keyless S-10, BMI S-10, Evans FET-500LV, Fender Steel King, 2 Roland Cube 80XL's,
Sarno FreeLoader, Goodrich Passive Volume Pedals, Vintage ACE Pack-A-Seat
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Jon Light


From:
Saugerties, NY
Post  Posted 20 May 2021 3:09 pm    
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Well if you had the card all along, you could have saved everyone a whole mess of grief by posting it back then.
And nice job. That's a beauty.
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Scott Moon


From:
Canyon Lake, TX
Post  Posted 20 May 2021 3:52 pm    
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Thanks guys!

Laughing Laughing Laughing
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Don Mogle

 

From:
Round Rock, TX, USA
Post  Posted 20 May 2021 4:23 pm    
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Looks wonderful! That guitar and the Twin Reverb will make a great combination for sure! Job well done.
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John McClung


From:
Olympia WA, USA
Post  Posted 20 May 2021 5:51 pm    
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Wowee zowee!!!

Can you get a photo with both the top and front well-lit? That cabinet front must look gorgeous, but can't tell that from your first pic.

I'm a hobbyist photographer, so I care about these things... 🙄
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▪️ If you want to have an ongoing discussion, please email me, don't use the Forum messaging which I detest! steelguitarlessons@earthlink.net
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John McClung


From:
Olympia WA, USA
Post  Posted 20 May 2021 5:54 pm    
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Wowee zowee!!!
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E9 INSTRUCTION
▪️ If you want to have an ongoing discussion, please email me, don't use the Forum messaging which I detest! steelguitarlessons@earthlink.net
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Mike Ester


From:
New Braunfels, Texas, USA
Post  Posted 22 May 2021 9:48 am    
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Very nice.
_________________
U.S.A.F. 1978-1982
2005 Carter S12U 7x5
1978 Sho-Bud Pro II Custom 8x4

If you can't be a good example, be a horrible warning.
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Bobby Hearn

 

From:
Henrietta, Tx
Post  Posted 22 May 2021 2:40 pm    
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Chris Lucker, you seem like one of those guys that paints the stripes around trash cans in these modern mechanic shops and believes in the bs that the corporate bean counters pass down to working men.
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George Duncan Sypert

 

From:
Colo Spgs, Co, USA
Post  Posted 23 May 2021 8:42 am    
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Hello Scott. Beautiful redo on your Emmons Guitar. Could you please post a good picture of the underside so we can see Rick's handy work.

You won't recall but I met you back in the early 90's when you were playing a gig in Temple Texas. Can't remember who you were playing with that night but you played awesome.

Thanks,

George
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