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Topic: Emmons or Day setup, why??? |
Henry Matthews
From:
Texarkana, Ark USA
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Posted 11 Apr 2021 10:08 am |
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I know this has been discussed 1000’s of time but would like to get some fresh thoughts on why you, from your prospective, play the setup you play. I don’t think one is any better than the other but personally, I think Day setup has a few advantages for me personally. I started out years ago on Emmons setup and had been playing maybe 6 months and was introduced to Day setup. At the time, I didn’t know there was another but after trying Day, I thought it to be much easier and made more sense so I converted and been playing Day ever since. The only disadvantage I see for me is setting in on someone else’s guitar since probably 95% play Emmons setup. I guess really what I want to know is why the 95%.
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Henry Matthews
D-10 Magnum, 8 &5, dark rose color
D-10 1974 Emmons cut tail, fat back,rosewood, 8&5
Nashville 112 amp, Fishman Loudbox Performer amp, Hilton pedal, Goodrich pedal,BJS bar, Kyser picks, Live steel Strings. No effects, doodads or stomp boxes. |
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Tucker Jackson
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
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Posted 11 Apr 2021 10:54 am
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| Henry Matthews wrote: |
| I guess really what I want to know is why the 95%. |
Probably, newbies don't try both systems. They just get a guitar with the Emmons setup since that's what's mostly available, learn that, and never consider that Day may work better for them.
It's too bad, because this is strictly a matter of personal preference based on the ergonomics of which direction your ankle twists the easiest, and it only takes a few minutes to figure out which system is for you.
We spend a lot of time on the AB pedals, in particular, holding down the B- while rocking on and off of the A-pedal. Your ankle turns one way better than the other, so it's good know which direction that is (since most of us use the AB squeeze way more often than the BC).
One way to figure out what your ankle likes best: unscrew the C-pedal's 4th string tuner so it isn't doing anything. Voila! You just turned your C-pedal into another A-pedal (assuming you stay off of the 10th string). Now your line-up is A-B-A; you have both the Emmons and Day setup on your guitar at the same time so you can easily compare doing AB pedal squeezes twisting each direction.
If do you decide to permanently swap your A- and C-pedals, I highly recommend moving your F-lever (E raise) too so that it remains on the same 'side' of the pedal line-up as the A-pedal so you can easily do A+F. Assuming it's going to be on a left knee, it would be: Emmons-LKL, Day-LKR.
.
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Last edited by Tucker Jackson on 13 Apr 2021 9:28 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Jeff Mead
From:
London, England
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Posted 11 Apr 2021 2:40 pm
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Another advantage to me for Day setup is that, as the levers that raise and lower the Es are both on my left knee, I find it more instinctive that I raise/lower the Es by moving my knee in the direction I'd move the bar to raise or lower a note.
But I'd agree that most beginners (me included) don't actually make that decision and just go with however the guitar they buy is set up. Which is mostly Emmons.
I think there might be a slightly higher percentage of Day players here in the UK because in the early days of pedal steel over here - late 60s and early 70s - there was a very influential player called Gordon Huntley who played Day setup. One of the few shops where you could buy a pedal steel was owned by another Day player and he imported ZB steels which he sold set up as Day (not sure if he got them that way or re-configured them to his preference). |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 11 Apr 2021 3:27 pm
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Henry, 95% is an exaggeration - it's more like 65.
The first steel I managed to get my hands on had the Day setup and I didn't have the knowledge to change it, or a motive - I just wanted to play, not tinker! (Ironically, I later detected that it had been altered from Emmons in the past.)
When I switched to universal I found having the A pedal next to the B6 pedals useful, whereas the C pedal has no meaning in B6 and is best parked out of the way.
The choice of setup depends on the geometry of the individual's foot. We spend a lot of time holding the B pedal down while we squeeze the A and although the majority feel more natural going outward, others feel they can control it better coming in.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Tucker Jackson
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
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Posted 11 Apr 2021 3:54 pm
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| Jeff Mead wrote: |
| I think there might be a slightly higher percentage of Day players here in the UK because in the early days of pedal steel over here - late 60s and early 70s - there was a very influential player called Gordon Huntley who played Day setup. |
Makes sense.
I'm guessing the long-running popularity of Buddy Emmons had a lot to do with the widespread adoption of the setup that bears his name.  I imagine that had he been a Day player, almost everyone would be too. That dude had his own gravitational force.
Can some of you historians verify this: didn't Sho-Bud put out a bunch of Day guitars (as the default, if the buyer was a newbie who didn't have a preference)? And didn't that lead to a whole rash of Day players who got started back in Sho-Bud's heyday? I know they made a lot of PSGs with the E-lowers on the right knee and that got some folks trained for that, but was the Day pedal line-up part of that too? |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 11 Apr 2021 11:27 pm
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If Buddy had been a Day player he would have been called Jimmy.
I suspect that when the first lever appeared (lowering 2 and 8) it went on the right knee because the left leg was already "busy" with the pedals and it would be closer to the changer, so less hardware.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Jack Stoner
From:
Kansas City, MO
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Posted 12 Apr 2021 2:05 am
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When I started on Pedal Steel, in late 69, I bought the Sho-Bud instruction book. The setup in the book was the Emmons (and one knee lever to lower 2 and 8 strings) so that is how I set up my steel. Had the book featured the Day setup then I would be a Day user.
I've played Day setup guitars and have no problem with that setup. I used to sit in on a Day set up guitar at a friends gig. Two songs and I was "rewired" for the Day.
I don't see a plus or minus for either setup.
_________________
GFI Ultra Keyless S-10 with pad (Black of course) TB202 amp, Hilton VP, Steelers Choice sidekick seat, SIT Strings
Cakewalk by Bandlab and Studio One V4.6 pro DAWs, MOTU Ultralite MK5 recording interface unit |
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 12 Apr 2021 4:00 am
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played them both , I didn't see any advantage one way or another for ME to change to DAY from Emmons.
I suspect we may want to learn why Jimmy REALLY went the other direction. Maybe it was as simple as his ankle hurt or a rod broke one day.
Like Jack said above, guitars were not well configured way back compared to today. Maybe Jimmy just did something to make his life easier with 2 or 3 peds and 1 or 2 levers, then just stayed that way.
Maybe we make too much of this , nobody is playing better music one way or the other as far as I can tell ! 
_________________
Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years
CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 12 Apr 2021 6:44 am
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| As a late starter on pedal steel (60-ish), training my foot to rock both ways on AB and BC has been challenging enough. People who have played most of their lives may be more adaptive to Day/Emmons. After 4 years, I still find myself adjusting pedal height, which seems more physically crucial than an Emmons vs Day quandary, which seems like more of a mental adjustment, like Jack and Tony have said. If you are set up CBA, the big physical issue for me would probably be the A+F combination, assuming the F lever is still on LKL. |
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Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 12 Apr 2021 7:47 am
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I went to a Little Jimmy Dickens show many years ago.
Afterwards, I went up and talked to the pedal steel player and asked him about getting a pedal steel.
He gave me Shot Jackson's phone number and to let him know what I was interested in and tell him to set up Emmons style. That's the way I started. 
Erv |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 12 Apr 2021 8:57 am
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| Fred Treece wrote: |
| If you are set up CBA, the big physical issue for me would probably be the A+F combination, assuming the F lever is still on LKL. |
That's not an assumption anyone would make. If you raise and lower your Es with the left knee, the levers have to be the right way round for the pedals.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Chris Scruggs
From:
Nashville, Tennessee, USA
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Posted 12 Apr 2021 9:27 am
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Tony, I don’t know if you are familiar with the story or not (I would assume you are), but the legend is Buddy thought up the idea for splitting the pedal into two while on the road. He called Jimmy and explained the concept of split pedals to him over the phone and they each set their guitars up separately. When Buddy got back to town, they got together and found they had split the “Isaacs†pedal in separate directions. Buddy’s going AB, Jimmy’s going BA.
Let’s also consider the concept behind why they were split in the first place, and how each player’s pedal arrangement helped to inform the evolving vocabulary and harmonic possibilities of “split pedals.
The original concept was largely built around a desire to get the C#minor/E13 voicing, which was a popular western swing tuning at the time and not available with the Bud Isaacs’ set up which raised both B and G# together. Later in life, Buddy would experiment with a pedal E13 tuning, as well as splitting the A pedal itself into one pedal for 4 and a knee lever for 8, I’m sure at least partially for the sake of getting a truer E13 voicing. Listening to how he first incorporated the split pedals on “Half A Mind†adds to this theory. Remember, the suspended “mash down on B and rock back and forth on A†sound came FROM the split pedals, and was not a part of the steel sound before this. It was not the inspiration for splitting the pedals.
With all that in mind, it would make sense that Buddy’s original concept was not to rock his foot back and forth, but to press the OUTSIDE of his foot down on A to reclaim the E13 sound which had been lost to the two dimensional “E9 pedals up, A6 pedals†down Isaacs arrangement. When you hear Jimmy’s early split pedal playing, you hear the introduction of the suspended walk ups and single note runs that we have associated with split pedal “rocking†since.
And of course, they were both such close friends at the time, before too long whatever the other had discovered made its way into their joint vocabulary.
Let’s also not forget, the pedals had been split TWICE before and both times by Paul Bigsby. Vance Terry had a 13th tuning where the 6th in his chord lowered to the 5th and the 3rd raised to a 4th. Not quite the same, but mathematically it was there. But ALSO, Johnny Sibert’s Bigsby, originally a non-pedal guitar. He sent it back to have pedals added after the success of “Slowly.†Bigsby did not set the pedals up “Isaacs style,†though. He set it up with SPLIT PEDALS and they were split in what two years later would be credited as the DAY style. G# to A on the left, B to C# on the right. Sibert sold the guitar to Webb Pierce as Webb’s “company guitar†for Sonny Burnett to use (because Bigsby steels with pedals were rare as hen’s teeth in 1954). Sonny didn’t see the advantage, so Shot Jackson set it back up in the Isaacs style for Sonny to use on all those Webb hits.
Considering the fact that in spite of the most common usage (mash B and rock on and off of A), that we do rock both ways on the split pedals (playing with pedals down and letting off of B to get a descending 7 line, or getting the C#minor voicing, for instance), I tend to agree with Paul that you need to rock your ankle in both directions, regardless of set up. Each way has advantages. In the early days when the tuning and pedals were evolving, Buddy’s involvement with Sho~Bud and Emmons meant he default set up was “whatever Buddy was using that week,†which meant more guitar’s left the factory set up for his style, but in the earliest days in the mid 50s, it was pretty evenly split. If Ernest Tubb came to your town before Ray Price did, you talked to Buddy after the show and he told you about his way. If Price came to town before ET, you talked to Jimmy Day. Then those players taught others and the two tribes were born.
Just a few years ago here in Nashville, there were a lot of Day style players. Of the older session players, I’d say it was fairly even. Now most of the old timers are gone and the new, younger “old timers†who started playing in the later 60s and 70s lean much more heavily towards Emmons (though their are certain exceptions). I prefer Day, but learned Emmons anyways because (not a very romantic reason) I could see this shift coming down the pike, and I knew a guitar would be easier to resell if it was set up in the way most players prefer, and I only see that continuing to lean towards ABC. |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 12 Apr 2021 9:54 am
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| Ian Rae wrote: |
| Fred Treece wrote: |
| If you are set up CBA, the big physical issue for me would probably be the A+F combination, assuming the F lever is still on LKL. |
That's not an assumption anyone would make. If you raise and lower your Es with the left knee, the levers have to be the right way round for the pedals. |
That would make much better sense, thanks. |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 12 Apr 2021 9:57 am
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Thank you, Chris - a lot of history there!
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 12 Apr 2021 10:06 am
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I've tried both, and it's strictly Emmons for me. Operating the A & B pedals, I seem to have to roll quite a bit further in the A-pedal direction than the B-pedal direction to make the various moves required, with and without levers involved.
I analyzed this by carefully observing the way my left foot rolled, both left (outward - supination) and right (inward - pronation), and realized that the ball of my foot under the large toe, around the sesimoid bones, was really large and interfering with making large rolls to the right comfortably. I mean, I'm a big guy with large feet, but that area is huge. And I have pretty high arches, especially for a big guy who walks and runs a lot. All of this favors rolling to the outside pretty strongly.
When I was a kid, I over-pronated a lot. The back of my shoes always collapsed to the inside, and I was clearly rolling to the inside. But as I grew up, that completely stopped and I think the rapid growth of that area of my foot and the high arch contributed to that.
I honestly wish it were otherwise. I've had a few sprains and also had a large cyst removed from the top of my left foot, all on the left side. These left the left side of my left foot weaker and the cyst surgery messed up some of the nerves in that area. But even with all that, it's still a lot easier to roll to the left than the right. I'm sure I could get used to Day a lot easier otherwise. |
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Larry Hamilton
From:
Keller, Texas, USA
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Posted 12 Apr 2021 12:06 pm
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It was a regional,SE Oklahoma, thing for me. Seemed like most players played the Day way. When I moved to OKC in the early 70’s it seemed everyone played the Emmons setup.
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Keep pickin', Larry |
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Ben Lawson
From:
Brooksville Florida
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Posted 12 Apr 2021 12:41 pm
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| Mainly Emmons set up but my Eb knee lever is right knee left. That's the way I learned and after 50 years I can't change now. In my mis-spent younger days I could switch to the Day set up enough to play but it wasn't comfortable. You know, old dog, new tricks! |
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Henry Matthews
From:
Texarkana, Ark USA
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Posted 12 Apr 2021 1:46 pm
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Good info from everyone and thanks Chris for the history. Very interesting.
I have noticed that about half Emmons players when using A pedal alone, shift their foot to outside just pressing the one pedal. Day players don’t have that option on D-10’s but can’t see any advantage or disadvantage.
One thing I have heard is that Day setup tends to cause more cabinet drop because pedals are closer to center of pedal bar. Something I have never noticed to be any different from either.
I can play both setups but takes me about 20 minutes to get comfortable on Emmons but funny thing, if I switch back to my guitar immediately, I have trouble getting dialed back in on Day. What ever setup we play we do automatically and going to another setup requires thinking about what your doing, for a while anyway.
I personally think for a beginner that Day setup would make the learning curve smaller because combined with knee levers, it’s just more logical. I do however suggest to the people that I’ve helped to learn to use Emmons strictly because so many more play it.
With the guitars that I’ve rebuilt and done setups on, I’ve found that Day setup installs easier than Emmons because of the way pull rods are located, especially push pulls.
On a push pull, you wind up with E lowers lever on shaft and E raise with the reverser mechanism which to me just works better but it also makes push rods for lower longer so you need a good guide midway or close for push rods which are set up on bell cranks.
This could probably be discussed from now on but I just say, whatever setup is more comfortable to you is what you should use or the one you learned on. It’s really hard to change boats in the middle of the stream as our muscle memory or our brains would have to be totally rewired.
_________________
Henry Matthews
D-10 Magnum, 8 &5, dark rose color
D-10 1974 Emmons cut tail, fat back,rosewood, 8&5
Nashville 112 amp, Fishman Loudbox Performer amp, Hilton pedal, Goodrich pedal,BJS bar, Kyser picks, Live steel Strings. No effects, doodads or stomp boxes. |
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George Biner
From:
Los Angeles, CA
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Posted 12 Apr 2021 8:56 pm
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Henry, if I need the A pedal alone, I usually want to shift my foot to the outside -- but I got yelled at for doing that -- I still don't think it's harmful and you get a cleaner A pedal movement that way -- but I'm an iconoclast
_________________
Guacamole Mafia - acoustic harmony duo
Electrical engineer / amp tech in West Los Angeles -- I fix Peaveys
"Now there is a snappy sounding instrument. That f****r really sings." - Jerry Garcia |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 12 Apr 2021 11:32 pm
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This instrument is still evolving. The trombone is hundreds of years old and people can't agree on how to hold the slide. What you do with your feet is your own business.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 12 Apr 2021 11:40 pm
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Chris , thanks for the explanation above, I was NOT aware of the back story but it sure makes sense to me now, reflecting back. Plus I had forgot that Isaacs had the AB together so splitting them was HUGE. All it took was a brilliant mind like Buddy's. I'm guessing that both Jimmy and Buddy had a good laugh when they learned they set them up opposite ! They had no idea what they started ! 
Big thx for the explanation, looking forward to seeing the "Marty Show" down the road again. We were able to catch you in Charlotte in 2019.
Stay well, be safe
tp
_________________
Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years
CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website |
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Jack Stoner
From:
Kansas City, MO
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Posted 13 Apr 2021 2:05 am
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| George Biner wrote: |
| Henry, if I need the A pedal alone, I usually want to shift my foot to the outside -- but I got yelled at for doing that -- I still don't think it's harmful and you get a cleaner A pedal movement that way -- but I'm an iconoclast |
I do that too. Never thought, after playing pedals for 50+ years, it was "wrong".
_________________
GFI Ultra Keyless S-10 with pad (Black of course) TB202 amp, Hilton VP, Steelers Choice sidekick seat, SIT Strings
Cakewalk by Bandlab and Studio One V4.6 pro DAWs, MOTU Ultralite MK5 recording interface unit |
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Henry Matthews
From:
Texarkana, Ark USA
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Posted 13 Apr 2021 9:07 am
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| Jack Stoner wrote: |
| George Biner wrote: |
| Henry, if I need the A pedal alone, I usually want to shift my foot to the outside -- but I got yelled at for doing that -- I still don't think it's harmful and you get a cleaner A pedal movement that way -- but I'm an iconoclast |
I do that too. Never thought, after playing pedals for 50+ years, it was "wrong". |
Oh, I don’t think it’s wrong at all, was just explaining some of the differences. I know some great players that do that.
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Henry Matthews
D-10 Magnum, 8 &5, dark rose color
D-10 1974 Emmons cut tail, fat back,rosewood, 8&5
Nashville 112 amp, Fishman Loudbox Performer amp, Hilton pedal, Goodrich pedal,BJS bar, Kyser picks, Live steel Strings. No effects, doodads or stomp boxes. |
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James Quillian
From:
San Antonio, Texas, USA
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Posted 13 Apr 2021 9:20 am
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When I took up pedal steel 8 years ago, my intention was to learn to play.
Since almost all tab is written for the Emmons setup I intentionally went with the Emmoons aetup.
So far I haven't had any incentive to change.
_________________
Curbside Jimmy's New Act
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XlzieFLE5no |
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Jeff Mead
From:
London, England
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Posted 13 Apr 2021 11:34 am
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| James Quillian wrote: |
Since almost all tab is written for the Emmons setup I intentionally went with the Emmoons aetup.
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Could you explain what you mean by this and maybe post an example of some tab that is written for only Emmons setup. I've never seen any. |
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