| Author |
Topic: Nasville numbering question |
Skip Edwards
From:
LA,CA
|
Posted 2 Feb 2021 6:17 pm |
|
Couldn't be any easier than this...
 
 |
|
|
|
J D Sauser
From:
Wellington, Florida
|
Posted 2 Feb 2021 7:00 pm
|
|
| Jerry Overstreet wrote: |
The small 7 top right of the number is the designation for dom 7 in the Nashville Number System.
If it were a maj 7, it would be shown as one of these small case instead. maj7, M7, Δ |
OK... agreed. I just wasn't sure if there was any M7 in you example, since it's what we discussed.
Thanks!... J-D.
_________________
__________________________________________________________
Was it JFK who said: Ask Not What TAB Can Do For You - Rather Ask Yourself "What Would B.B. King Do?"
A Little Mental Health Warning:
Tablature KILLS SKILLS.
The uses of Tablature is addictive and has been linked to reduced musical fertility.
Those who produce Tablature did never use it.
I say it humorously, but I mean it. |
|
|
|
Bill Cunningham
From:
Atlanta, Ga. USA
|
Posted 2 Feb 2021 7:27 pm
|
|
| Skip Edwards wrote: |
| Quote: |
Major 7th as marked with a triangle instead of the "7" or with an "M7" or both the triangle and the "7" after the Chord Pos:
|
And, for our Canadian brethren...a 7 with a slash thru it usually means a Maj7.
At least it seems to out here in CA.
Just sayin'...
Hi Bill... |
Hi Skip!
Yea, little story about that California strike through the 7. JayDee and I were talking about that on his (your ?  ) charts at one of the steel shows I worked bass with him. I told him the Nashville Numbers book attributes that symbol as being brought to Nashville by John Hobbs. JayDee said “yea, that’s where I got it from.â€
_________________
Bill Cunningham
Atlanta, GA |
|
|
|
Jerry Overstreet
From:
Louisville Ky
|
Posted 2 Feb 2021 7:36 pm
|
|
| J D Sauser wrote: |
| Jerry Overstreet wrote: |
The small 7 top right of the number is the designation for dom 7 in the Nashville Number System.
If it were a maj 7, it would be shown as one of these small case instead. maj7, M7, Δ |
OK... agreed. I just wasn't sure if there was any M7 in you example, since it's what we discussed.
Thanks!... J-D. |
I was responding to the initial question posed by Patrick which was about dom 7, that is all.
| Patrick Fleming wrote: |
HI,
How do you notate a chord that is out side of the key? Specifically when your borrow the dominate 7 chord from the key of the 5 chord. Say you are in the key of C and you want a D7 chord (D major with a C added). How do i notate that in the number system? Thanks.
Patrick |
|
|
|
|
Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
|
Posted 2 Feb 2021 8:02 pm
|
|
When you say '7 with a slash through it' or 'California strike through 7' for a maj7, are you talking about a French 7 like so?
Never heard of that one, and that would drive me nuts 'cause that's how I normally hand-notate the numeral 7. And good luck finding ANY computer font with that symbol for a computer-typeset chart. I just looked and finally resorted to an image. There may be one out there, but using special computer symbols is something I try to avoid. |
|
|
|
Franklin
|
Posted 2 Feb 2021 9:37 pm
|
|
https://www.paulfranklinmethod.com/post/number-theory
This number system topic is covered on my blog...Its a free site with many insights such as this thread on the Nashville Number system and how its used today in the studios...It really is simple to learn
Hope this helps!
Paul Franklin |
|
|
|
Skip Edwards
From:
LA,CA
|
Posted 2 Feb 2021 10:05 pm
|
|
That's the one, Dave. I never use it, for obvious reasons. No need to plant mines on a chart.
For me, though, the beauty of using the number system is not so much related to charts... it's the ability to hear the changes as they go by...
Last edited by Skip Edwards on 2 Feb 2021 10:08 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
|
|
Brint Hannay
From:
Maryland, USA
|
Posted 2 Feb 2021 10:06 pm
|
|
If someone already said this forgive me, I missed it-- but charting a song using numbers following the "rules" of "music theory" (i.e., diatonic music theory) is different from "Nashville Number System", which is what the OP asked about.
"Nashville Number System", as I understand it, is a greatly simplified system designed to facilitate players being able to execute their parts quickly in a recording session where the clock running means cost to the client. Niceties of conforming notation to the nuanced conventions of "Theory" are bypassed in favor of easy reading.
That's why in the "Nashville " system, they don't use Roman numerals--harder to read--or theoretical constructs. Example (actually the OP's original example): In a song based in the key of C (i.e., beginning and/or ending on a C major chord), a D7 chord, according to "theory", is a V7 of V; in Nashville Number System, it's 2superscript7 (sorry, I have no idea how to type a superscript in this computer! "Superscript" means a smaller number at the top half of the number or letter before it. Anyway NNS charts are (or were) most often handwritten.)
| Quote: |
And, for our Canadian brethren...a 7 with a slash thru it usually means a Maj7.
At least it seems to out here in CA. |
My schooling, such as it was, was in San Francisco, California, in 1975. I was taught "triangle7" (don't want to hassle with finding a delta) for major 7. Minor 7 was -7 (hyphen7). Whatever conventions are used for everything else, a number (Arabic or Roman) followed by a 7 means dominant 7th.
| Quote: |
| Most people I know reserve slash notation to annotate bass notes in a chord - e.g., A/E would be an A chord with E=5 in the bass, or 2nd inversion. So I (and most people I deal with) would interpret 2/7 as a II chord with 7 in the bass unless told otherwise. |
My experience is that in Nashville system, slash is the usual way to indicate a measure divided equally between two chords; e.g. 4/5 would indicate a measure (in 4/4 time) with two beats of 4 and two beats of 5, not a 4 chord with 5 in the bass. That would be indicated by "4 over 5", that is, looking like the fraction "four-fifths". Unequal division of beats between two or more chords in a measure requires a slash with "ticks" under each chord--e.g. 3 ticks under 4, 1 tick under 5.
This whole thread shows the chaotic, Wild West state of numerical notation!  |
|
|
|
Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
|
Posted 3 Feb 2021 6:59 am
|
|
| Quote: |
| If someone already said this forgive me, I missed it-- but charting a song using numbers following the "rules" of "music theory" (i.e., diatonic music theory) is different from "Nashville Number System", which is what the OP asked about. |
Discussed in Paul's blog post.
| Quote: |
| ... it's 2superscript7 (sorry, I have no idea how to type a superscript in this computer! "Superscript" means a smaller number at the top half of the number or letter before it. Anyway NNS charts are (or were) most often handwritten. |
Just an FYI - on this forum, subscripts and superscripts are very easily done in bbcode:
Subscript: 27
| Code: |
| bbode: 2[sub]7[/sub] |
Superscript: 27
| Code: |
| bbode: 2[sup]7[/sup] |
| Quote: |
| My experience is that in Nashville system, slash is the usual way to indicate a measure divided equally between two chords; e.g. 4/5 would indicate a measure (in 4/4 time) with two beats of 4 and two beats of 5, not a 4 chord with 5 in the bass. That would be indicated by "4 over 5", that is, looking like the fraction "four-fifths". |
On Paul's blog post, one of examples shows the following chord - 57/9 - which I would take as a 57 chord with 9 in the bass - e.g., in the key of C, a G7 with D in the bass. Regardless of interpretation of the superscripited slash /, this example shows an advantage to putting all the chord quality figures in superscript, which gives a clear way to semantically distinguish between multiple usages of symbols, such as using the slash, /, on the main line of text to split a measure versus using it in the superscript to denote, for example, a "slash chord". Or another example, b9 or #9 chords, where there could be ambiguity (or difficulty in reading) between the #/b of the scale degree and the #/b of the chord quality - e.g., 3bb9 to denote an Ebb9 chord, or 3b7b9 = Eb7b9 if you're pedantic, in the key of C.
| Quote: |
| This whole thread shows the chaotic, Wild West state of numerical notation! |
Yes, there are lots of different conventions. This is typical in any language, and music notation is a language. To me, these variations are basically dialects, and I don't think there is any real difficulty making adjustments to slightly different dialects provided one understands the fundamentals of the language. IMO, the key is good communication about any special conventions betwen the people involved. |
|
|
|
Brint Hannay
From:
Maryland, USA
|
Posted 3 Feb 2021 8:19 am
|
|
Thanks for the FYI on sub- and superscript.
Paul doesn't discuss in the blog post the question of divided measures. Handwritten charts in Nashville numbers that I've seen showed a split measure with a vertical line or slash between the chords, e.g. 2|5 or 2/5. A chord with bass note indicated would be arranged vertically, chord number with the bass note under it below a horizontal line. (Is there a way to type that here?)
As for Paul's G7/9 chord, if I encountered that I would take it as a dominant ninth chord with its dominant quality emphasized, as not all players would necessarily play the ninth. That's just what I would have assumed; I've actually always wondered what was meant by that particular notation. It would seem odd to me to put the bass note in superscript, but maybe that's what it is. |
|
|
|
Jerry Overstreet
From:
Louisville Ky
|
Posted 3 Feb 2021 9:02 am
|
|
I guess you didn't read my earlier post where I showed the bass note under the main chord number here:
I have seen the bass note separated with a slash but it's always underneath the main chord number.
It's also confusing because a forward slash generally designates a split measure which I also show in the chart I posted.
| Jerry Overstreet wrote: |
You want to write charts that are easy and quick to read for the musicians.
Example using arabic numbers which I prefer.
1_____#5â·_____ 1______6â·
2â·_____5â·______1_____#5â·____1
In the Nashville Number System a slash designates a split measure:
1_____ 6______1/5______1
In the above case ea. measure gets 4 beats except for the 3rd measure which has 2 beats on the 1 and 2 beats on the 5. If the split measure does not have equal beats on ea. number, it can be shown with dots above ea. number designating how many counts on ea. split number. Some write split chords enclosed in a box.
... .
1/5
A chart with a lead chord having a different bass note would be written with the bass note underneath the lead:
1
5 |
As one can see, it can get confusing depending on the who authors the chart. That's a good reason for getting the Chas Williams NNS booklet and familiariazing oneself with some of the different author's conventions. |
|
|
|
Brint Hannay
From:
Maryland, USA
|
Posted 3 Feb 2021 9:22 am
|
|
Apologies, Jerry, for overlooking your post. At least my posts "second the motion".  |
|
|
|
Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
|
Posted 3 Feb 2021 11:31 am
|
|
Yeah, Brint - as I implied, I don't actually know the intended semantics for that 57/9. I think it is typical to write a 9th chord as simply 9, i.e., 59, with the b7 implied. So to me, the 7/9 would be redundant and potentially ambiguous. As I alluded to earlier, some people I've run into get annoyed with something like 5b9, and insist on writing it 57b9. Easily remedied without ambiguity.
There are at least a few methods to notate non-root bass notes and inversions for a chord. The slash / is very common in popular music - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slash_chord. Using an over/under fraction notation as Jerry suggests is sometimes used. I don't like it because it's a PITA to typeset. Sometimes a straight bar | is used instead of a slash, but I've seen that more to indicate compound chords, and of course there is potential ambiguity with its use to separate bars. And sometimes slash / is used to indicate compound chords. I've also seen non-root bass notes simply written underneath the main chord symbols with no other lexical tokens.
These are all a matter of convention, and it should be possible to easily and quickly reconcile any ambiguities with a brief communication at the moment. |
|
|
|
Bill Cunningham
From:
Atlanta, Ga. USA
|
Posted 3 Feb 2021 7:52 pm
|
|
| Dave Mudgett wrote: |
When you say '7 with a slash through it' or 'California strike through 7' for a maj7, are you talking about a French 7 like so?
Never heard of that one, and that would drive me nuts 'cause that's how I normally hand-notate the numeral 7. And good luck finding ANY computer font with that symbol for a computer-typeset chart. I just looked and finally resorted to an image. There may be one out there, but using special computer symbols is something I try to avoid. |
Yes that’s it Dave. Lack of a computer symbol is probably not a problem for the Nashville pros because they usually just use a pencil, I think.
_________________
Bill Cunningham
Atlanta, GA |
|
|
|
