| Author |
Topic: Increasing Sustain |
Lee Baucum
From:
McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier
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Posted 11 Sep 2020 10:00 am |
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Dennis - As I recall, the 710s and 712s were designed to be used with a passive volume pedal and without a buffer. I had a 712 in my Mullen U-12 many years ago and it behaved much better when I took my Hilton Digital Sustain out of the line. I was using (and still do) passive Goodrich Model 120 volume pedals.
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Lee, from South Texas - Down On The Rio Grande
There are only two options as I see it.
Either I'm right, or there is a sinister conspiracy to conceal the fact that I'm right.
Williams Keyless S-10, BMI S-10, Evans FET-500LV, Fender Steel King, 2 Roland Cube 80XL's,
Sarno FreeLoader, Goodrich Passive Volume Pedals, Vintage ACE Pack-A-Seat |
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Bob Bestor
From:
Ashland, OR
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Posted 11 Sep 2020 11:36 am
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| Erv Niehaus wrote: |
I've heard it said that Buddy Emmons would walk up to a pedal steel and strum the strings.
He would grab one of the legs and if he could feel the vibrations in the leg, he deemed it to be a good guitar. 
Erv |
I just checked my Mullen Discovery and sure enough, after a light strum, I could feel the vibration in all four legs. My axe is Buddy Emmons approved! No more excuses unfortunately.
_________________
Keep on truckin'
Last edited by Bob Bestor on 11 Sep 2020 11:48 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 11 Sep 2020 11:43 am
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Don't blame it on the guitar, then. 
Erv |
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Dennis Montgomery
From:
Western Washington
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Posted 11 Sep 2020 12:56 pm
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| Lee Baucum wrote: |
| Dennis - As I recall, the 710s and 712s were designed to be used with a passive volume pedal and without a buffer. I had a 712 in my Mullen U-12 many years ago and it behaved much better when I took my Hilton Digital Sustain out of the line. I was using (and still do) passive Goodrich Model 120 volume pedals. |
Good to know, thanks Lee. I'm currently running through an active Hilton volume pedal. I still have my good old 1978 Fender passive volume pedal around somewhere and will give it a try 
One strange thing I noticed is in humbucker mode I was getting some strange static in the signal and thought it might be clipping. Traced it down to the compressor in the Line6 PodXT. The compressor in this patch handles the single coil setting just fine, but I think the humbucker signal is just too hot. I'll be curious if it behaves differently with my old Fender volume pedal or even bypassing that and plugging straight in to the PodXT.
_________________
Hear my latest album, "Celestial" featuring a combination of Mullen SD12 and Synthesizers:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhh6b_xXTx4&list=PLfXm8aXRTFz0x-Sxso0NWw493qAouK
Hear my album, "Armistice" featuring Fender 400 on every song:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLfXm8aXRTFz2Pz_GXhvmjne7lPEtsplyW
Hear my Pedal Steel Only playlist featuring Mullen G2 SD12 on covers like Candyman, Wild Horses, Across the Universe & more...
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLfXm8aXRTFz2f0JOyiXpZyzNrvnJObliA |
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Dennis Montgomery
From:
Western Washington
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Posted 13 Sep 2020 9:36 am
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Now that I've converted my Mullen to a split coil L712 humbucker, decided to take a shot on the Cali76 Stacked dual compressor. It's pricey, but they claim it's studio grade so I'll give it a thorough going over. I've honestly never had much success with compressors, but I've never tried anything quite like this one before. One unusual thing about the Cali76 that leads me to believe it's much higher quality than the usual stomp box design is Origin recommends you power it with an 18V not 9V source. They say this increases the headroom and allows cleaner processing of conventional and active pickups. That's what I'll try to find out! As usual, I ordered from Sweetwater so if it doesn't work out a return is super easy
If anyone's curious, the manual for the Cali76 Stacked can be found at https://origineffects.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/Origin-Effects-Cali76-Stacked-Edition-manual.pdf?
Oh ya, I gave my G2 the Buddy Emmons test and it passed with flying colors. I lightly strummed the strings and felt vibrations down all 4 legs so coupled with the Cali76 I have very high expectations 
_________________
Hear my latest album, "Celestial" featuring a combination of Mullen SD12 and Synthesizers:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhh6b_xXTx4&list=PLfXm8aXRTFz0x-Sxso0NWw493qAouK
Hear my album, "Armistice" featuring Fender 400 on every song:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLfXm8aXRTFz2Pz_GXhvmjne7lPEtsplyW
Hear my Pedal Steel Only playlist featuring Mullen G2 SD12 on covers like Candyman, Wild Horses, Across the Universe & more...
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLfXm8aXRTFz2f0JOyiXpZyzNrvnJObliA |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 15 Sep 2020 7:57 am
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| Erv Niehaus wrote: |
I've heard it said that Buddy Emmons would walk up to a pedal steel and strum the strings.
He would grab one of the legs and if he could feel the vibrations in the leg, he deemed it to be a good guitar.
Erv |
And some said otherwise...
| Bobbe Seymour wrote: |
| ...There were seven things that made that guitar great. I'll tell you a couple. The changer unit is one. It's design is absolutely unique. All the vibrations from the strings go into the body of the guitar. In a (all) pull guitar, the vibrations go into the end castings, then into the legs and down to the floor. Do you want a good sounding guitar or a good sounding floor? |
As for myself, I think I'd play a guitar before I passed judgement on how it sounded.  |
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Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 15 Sep 2020 8:01 am
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Let's do a poll.
"Who would you rather agree with, Buddy Emmons or Bobby Seymour?" 
Erv |
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Pete Burak
From:
Portland, OR USA
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Posted 15 Sep 2020 8:35 am
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I just listened to Dennis' version of Candyman again, specifically the Solo section, as well as the Jerry Garcia original Pedal Steel solo on the studio version.
Both are outside the box of my typical Buddy Cage-ee zone.
I play that song on occasion with jam bands, and next time I think I will go with a single-note E-Bow method for infinite Sustain purposes. |
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Dennis Montgomery
From:
Western Washington
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Pete Burak
From:
Portland, OR USA
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Posted 15 Sep 2020 9:38 am
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Right On!
I have been enjoying the Ebow quite a bit in recent years.
I like to use it on Melody solos on Ballads, mainly on string-5 with the A-pedal as needed.
For example in a Country context, Silver Wings verse and/or bridge makes for a good E-bow solo.
Ya just need to get a feel for distance from both the pickup, and the bar, as you play (and volume pedal), and if it starts to feedback just tip it forward (away from your body) a little bit for a moment.
Funn Stuff! |
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Lee Baucum
From:
McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier
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Posted 15 Sep 2020 2:15 pm
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| Erv Niehaus wrote: |
Let's do a poll.
"Who would you rather agree with, Buddy Emmons or Bobby Seymour?"
Erv |
Hmmm. Hearsay vs Quote
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Lee Baucum
From:
McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier
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Posted 15 Sep 2020 2:24 pm
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| Donny Hinson wrote: |
| Erv Niehaus wrote: |
I've heard it said that Buddy Emmons would walk up to a pedal steel and strum the strings.
He would grab one of the legs and if he could feel the vibrations in the leg, he deemed it to be a good guitar.
Erv |
And some said otherwise...
| Bobbe Seymour wrote: |
| ...There were seven things that made that guitar great. I'll tell you a couple. The changer unit is one. It's design is absolutely unique. All the vibrations from the strings go into the body of the guitar. In a (all) pull guitar, the vibrations go into the end castings, then into the legs and down to the floor. Do you want a good sounding guitar or a good sounding floor? |
As for myself, I think I'd play a guitar before I passed judgement on how it sounded. |
I agree, Donny.
Bobbe was quite passionate about his theories on how string vibrations affect a guitar's overall performance. Not just sustain. He used the term "timbre" quite a bit in his posts.
One can easily do a search for his old posts on the subject and read about his theories. |
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Damien Odell
From:
Springwood, New South Wales, Australia
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Posted 15 Sep 2020 2:29 pm
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| Keep your strings fresh, use a heavier bar - this makes a real difference and work on your right hand string attack. |
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Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 17 Sep 2020 7:12 am
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Lee,
Did you ever have any dealings with Bobby Seymour?
rv |
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Larry Bressington
From:
Nebraska
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Posted 18 Sep 2020 7:20 pm
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| I would not try to buy sustain, first try setting your volume pedal up so that you have some bleedthrough when the volume is all the way off, turn up the gain on your amp, as the note starts to decay equally apply the volume pedal throughout its travel range smoothly and equally. You are going to need to strings to vibrate to make noise, so you may have to pick them harder when possible. I like your thinking and ideas Dennis. ðŸ‘🻠|
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Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 19 Sep 2020 7:27 am
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It has been mentioned before, but some vibrato used along with the volume control is a great way to extend sustain. You can keep it going forever.
Just don't use a stainless steel bar on stainless steel strings or all you'll hear is string noise.
Erv |
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Dennis Montgomery
From:
Western Washington
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Posted 19 Sep 2020 3:11 pm
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| Damien Odell wrote: |
| Keep your strings fresh, use a heavier bar - this makes a real difference and work on your right hand string attack. |
I never really thought much about the bar before, though I've always been a bit suspicious that mine wasn't really designed for 12 string. It came with the old 10 string MCI I bought back in 2018. It always seemed a bit light and short. Put it on the chef's scale my wife uses and found it was 8.5 oz while coming in at 3 3/8" and 7/8" diameter.
b0b to the rescue! He sells a Dunlop 921 with a 1" diameter, 3 3/4" length and 11.8 oz so picked one up (https://www.steelguitarshopper.com/dunlop-921-stainless-steel-tone-bar/). It arrived yesterday and what a difference! I don't have to bear down on the strings nearly so much to get clean notes and it's much easier to play wide chords without buzzing. And an unexpected bonus is the larger diameter makes it much easier to pick up and control for open strings/chords even though it's much heavier than what I've been using.
Here's a shot of them together...it's like baby bar and Momma Bar
_________________
Hear my latest album, "Celestial" featuring a combination of Mullen SD12 and Synthesizers:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhh6b_xXTx4&list=PLfXm8aXRTFz0x-Sxso0NWw493qAouK
Hear my album, "Armistice" featuring Fender 400 on every song:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLfXm8aXRTFz2Pz_GXhvmjne7lPEtsplyW
Hear my Pedal Steel Only playlist featuring Mullen G2 SD12 on covers like Candyman, Wild Horses, Across the Universe & more...
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLfXm8aXRTFz2f0JOyiXpZyzNrvnJObliA |
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Dennis Montgomery
From:
Western Washington
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Posted 19 Sep 2020 3:52 pm
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| Larry Bressington wrote: |
| I would not try to buy sustain, first try setting your volume pedal up so that you have some bleedthrough when the volume is all the way off, turn up the gain on your amp, as the note starts to decay equally apply the volume pedal throughout its travel range smoothly and equally. You are going to need to strings to vibrate to make noise, so you may have to pick them harder when possible. I like your thinking and ideas Dennis. ðŸ‘🻠|
Thanks Larry! I totally get your point about buying sustain. I've been a musician my whole life and a guitarist since 1980. I've made all the mistakes we've all made of buying expensive gear or effects thinking they would solve problems with technique and inexperience only to be disappointed. They're tough lessons to learn especially when you learn them after the 30 day return period ends
But I've also learned there are times when you do need to upgrade to the right tools for the job. My pedal steel journey has taught me a few things. Most important, start with a stable instrument that operates properly! It's the only way you know for sure that the sucking sound you hear is you learning and not the instrument's limitations or mechanical problems The other thing I've learned is I'm not out to play the standard licks or repertoire (though I love hearing others play them) so to get the sounds I have in my head I have to go out of the box.
I've been playing my Mullen 12 string G2 in extended D9 for about 3 years now. I've arranged and recorded 18 songs ranging from the Beatles to the Grateful Dead to King Crimson and it seems every few months I can feel a breakthrough in technique or understanding. I think this is enough time to understand what I want to improve and make some moves - which lead me to start this thread. I've received a wealth of info from everyone and am very thankful for that, but as these things go some of it I'll use and some won't apply.
I've implemented a few things I learned here to improve my sustain such as replacing my pickup with a Bill Lawrence L712 humbucker (which thankfully I was determined to wire with a coil tap switch), adding the Cali76 stacked compressor and finally a more appropriate bar for a 12 string.
I'm super excited to be working with these new tools and think they'll all be positive additions on the road to improving my sound...and if not, I still have until October 15 to return my Cali76
_________________
Hear my latest album, "Celestial" featuring a combination of Mullen SD12 and Synthesizers:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhh6b_xXTx4&list=PLfXm8aXRTFz0x-Sxso0NWw493qAouK
Hear my album, "Armistice" featuring Fender 400 on every song:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLfXm8aXRTFz2Pz_GXhvmjne7lPEtsplyW
Hear my Pedal Steel Only playlist featuring Mullen G2 SD12 on covers like Candyman, Wild Horses, Across the Universe & more...
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLfXm8aXRTFz2f0JOyiXpZyzNrvnJObliA |
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Jacek Jakubek
From:
Mississauga, Ontario, Canada
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Posted 20 Sep 2020 2:46 am
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I use a large bar, too. Makes a big difference in tone/sustain...the trade-off is speed and more difficulty with intonation.
| Erv Niehaus wrote: |
| It has been mentioned before, but some vibrato used along with the volume control is a great way to extend sustain. You can keep it going forever. |
Daniel Lanois demonstrates this exact technique of using vibrato to extend sustain, which he calls "shimmer technique" at the 1:20 min. mark in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XlzWymL5fq8&t=179s. The music sounds a bit like the kind of music Dennis plays. |
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Jim Pitman
From:
Waterbury Ctr. VT 05677 USA
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Posted 20 Sep 2020 2:50 am
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| It would not be that difficult to make a "sustain measurer". |
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Dennis Montgomery
From:
Western Washington
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Dennis Montgomery
From:
Western Washington
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Posted 20 Sep 2020 10:22 am
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| Jim Pitman wrote: |
| It would not be that difficult to make a "sustain measurer". |
I have a couple ways to measure my sustain and the changes I'm implementing to try and increase it.
First is I plug my Mullen into a Line6 PodXT which has an input signal strength LED. By trying different things (adding the Cali76 into the signal path, L712 humbucker vs split coil, varying vibrato techniques, etc I can compare how many seconds my input strength LED stays lit.
Second is more reliable as it's visual and just a simple A/B test with my recorder. I count out and play a major chord on the low frets, sliding up through it's inversions to the octave and let it ring out until it dies straight from the Mullen. Then record on another track the exact same exercise and timing with different variables (adding the Cali76, running through the Line6 PodXT, humbucker vs split coil, vibrato etc). Then compare the volume levels of the recorded tracks. It's easy to see how each change increases the sustain over the completely dry baseline recording. The levels don't lie
_________________
Hear my latest album, "Celestial" featuring a combination of Mullen SD12 and Synthesizers:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhh6b_xXTx4&list=PLfXm8aXRTFz0x-Sxso0NWw493qAouK
Hear my album, "Armistice" featuring Fender 400 on every song:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLfXm8aXRTFz2Pz_GXhvmjne7lPEtsplyW
Hear my Pedal Steel Only playlist featuring Mullen G2 SD12 on covers like Candyman, Wild Horses, Across the Universe & more...
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLfXm8aXRTFz2f0JOyiXpZyzNrvnJObliA |
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Dennis Montgomery
From:
Western Washington
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Posted 2 Oct 2020 9:39 am
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Just wanted to add a quick note to the thread. After using the Cali76 Stacked compressor for a couple weeks it's definitely a keeper. Took a bit of trial and error to dial in the right settings, but it's performing great...extremely quiet and built like a tank. The biggest challenge was setting the right input level. With the input too high, I was getting very unpleasant digital distortion...not like it's output was overdriving the recorder inputs, but the first compressor overdriving the second within the Cali itself. Once I backed that out it's been great.
I'm also very happy with the new super heavy Dunlop bar. I definitely don't have to bear down as hard on the strings to get a clean sound.
Finally, I've gotten comfortable with the sound of the Bill Lawrence L712 in humbucker mode. Playing without picks combined with such a bright humbucker gives a great sound. It also performs as a team with the Cali76 much better in humbucker than in split coil mode (though the coil split sound is fun to play too). I've even dropped the volume pedal and PodXT with it's volume swell effect from my signal path. Currently I plug direct from the Mullen to the Cali76 and into the board (where I add some delay).
In fact, if anyone's curious I've uploaded my arrangement/recording of the REM tune, "Good Advices" recorded with all the new changes I mentioned above. The only exception is the bass track which I ran through the PodXT for the volume swell effect. You can hear it at: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6dM-3F6NPXQ
Anyway, thanks all for your suggestions! I'm very happy with the changes I've made and definitely hear a major improvement in sustain over where I started a month ago
_________________
Hear my latest album, "Celestial" featuring a combination of Mullen SD12 and Synthesizers:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhh6b_xXTx4&list=PLfXm8aXRTFz0x-Sxso0NWw493qAouK
Hear my album, "Armistice" featuring Fender 400 on every song:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLfXm8aXRTFz2Pz_GXhvmjne7lPEtsplyW
Hear my Pedal Steel Only playlist featuring Mullen G2 SD12 on covers like Candyman, Wild Horses, Across the Universe & more...
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLfXm8aXRTFz2f0JOyiXpZyzNrvnJObliA |
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Mike Perlowin
From:
Los Angeles CA
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Posted 2 Oct 2020 10:10 am
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I suggest you get a Telonics multi-taper volume pedal, and set it on taper #6. This taper gradually adds some compression as the strings fade and the pedal is engaged.
I have one of these on my purple steel, and an old Ernie Ball on my white one. The difference in sustain very pronounced.
_________________
Please visit my web site and Soundcloud page and listen to the music posted there.
http://www.mikeperlowin.com http://soundcloud.com/mike-perlowin |
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Dennis Montgomery
From:
Western Washington
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