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Post new topic Sustain
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Author Topic:  Sustain
Mack Quinney

 

From:
Texas, USA
Post  Posted 19 Jul 2020 6:24 pm    
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Looking for some input. I have a push-pull set up at my house to practice on, a Williams 600 set up where the band practices, and a MSA Millennium that I gig with. All three are fabulous guitars and I love each one for different reasons.

When I practice at home on the PP it seams to sustain for days because of the mechanics. When I play the Williams at low volume I tend to run out of volume pedal to keep the note sustained. When I play a gig, there is enough volume at the gig and enough volume pedal to get the notes to sustain, but I ain’t gonna make three measures of a slow song.

How do I get the two all pull guitars to sustain like the Emmons push-pull without having to use so much volume pedal? I’m not real good at vibrato, is that the key?

All ideas are welcome.

Thanks

Thanks
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76 Emmons Push Pull, Williams 600, ShoBud Pro I, MSA Classic, Remington SteelMaster dbl 8, MSA Super Slide dbl 8, Gold Tone 6, And other instruments and equipment I can't afford.
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Jon Voth

 

From:
Virginia, USA
Post  Posted 19 Jul 2020 7:16 pm    
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I don't think you can?

You might notice sustain at home because of no background noise.

I think vibrato may call attention to your playing, but not add sustain.

I do envy you if you don't have to carry gear between home, rehearsal, & gigs!
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Bobby D. Jones

 

From:
West Virginia, USA
Post  Posted 19 Jul 2020 8:18 pm    
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Are you using the same volume pedal and amp with each guitar, Or using 3 different volume pedals and amps.
Different volume pedals have different volume capability.
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Johnie King

 

From:
Tennessee, USA
Post  Posted 19 Jul 2020 8:25 pm    
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Three Push pulls would be ideal.
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Paul Sutherland

 

From:
Placerville, California
Post  Posted 19 Jul 2020 8:46 pm    
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A Williams will never sound like an Emmons Push-Pull. Maybe it's the sustain. I'm not really sure what it is. I tried real hard to like my Williams, but ultimately concluded it's not the right steel for me. Many guys like Williams, including some famous players. And the folks at the Williams Company are a pleasure to deal with.

I sold my Williams and picked up a Rains. One of the best moves I've made in a long time. The Rains sounds much better to me. There are all pull guitars that sound really good.
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Rich Upright


From:
Florida, USA
Post  Posted 19 Jul 2020 11:51 pm    
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You ain't gonna get anything to sustain like a PP. ONly guitar I have ever heard that sustains like a PP is a Promat. The 1 thing I ever had that came close was my MSA Classic D-10. Almost TOO MUCH sustain.
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Anthony Campbell


From:
Indiana, USA
Post  Posted 20 Jul 2020 3:00 am    
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Depending on your budget, I’d check out a Cali76 compact deluxe.

Essentially an 1176 circuit in a pedal.. They’re not cheap, but they can make anything sing.

I couldnt find any pedal steel clips of it being used but I did find a lap steel.

I use it with my pedal steel but I dont have any decent clips up.


https://youtu.be/pn3mR0HRcbg
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Mack Quinney

 

From:
Texas, USA
Post  Posted 20 Jul 2020 5:58 am    
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Thank you for the replies.

Bobbie, yes, I am using a Goodrich (light pedal) on the Emmons, a Hilton on the Williams and a Telonics on the MSA. Didn't really think about the volume pedal, I'm sure each has different characteristics.

The Emmons is going through a processor into the PA, the Williams is going through a Roland Cube practice amp, and the MSA at gig time goes through a Black Box, a processor and the PA.

The volume pedal throw might have a lot to do with the non-PP's ability to sustain, I might take a different pedal to practice.

Anthony, I'll look into the Cali76. I was thinking about such a device.

thanks for the info.
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76 Emmons Push Pull, Williams 600, ShoBud Pro I, MSA Classic, Remington SteelMaster dbl 8, MSA Super Slide dbl 8, Gold Tone 6, And other instruments and equipment I can't afford.
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Asa Brosius

 

Post  Posted 20 Jul 2020 7:28 am    
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I struggle with sustain on certain guitars as well. Ultimately, it simply changes how you play. I had a push pull way back that sounded incredible- everything I wanted tonewise- but naturally seriously lacked in sustain for some reason, and the original single coil hum really jumped as you bled out the volume pedal on a cranked amp to find more. So I just picked more often, really enjoyed playing that thing. Vibrato certainly helps - if you have any doubt, crank your amp and shake your bar without picking. I moved to a single neck Fessenden that to this day has the most natural sustain I've ever heard- also more so than other Fessenden's I've played. No idea why. Wish I did.
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Donny Hinson

 

From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
Post  Posted 20 Jul 2020 7:34 am     Re: Sustain
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Mack Quinney wrote:
...When I play a gig, there is enough volume at the gig and enough volume pedal to get the notes to sustain, but I ain’t gonna make three measures of a slow song.



Sustain a note or chord for three measures in a slow song? Please give me an example where you (or anyone else) might do this.
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Mack Quinney

 

From:
Texas, USA
Post  Posted 20 Jul 2020 9:51 am    
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Donny, don’t know that I (or anyone else) would sustain a note for three measures just trying to point out that the PP has lots of sustain and all pull guitars do not.
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76 Emmons Push Pull, Williams 600, ShoBud Pro I, MSA Classic, Remington SteelMaster dbl 8, MSA Super Slide dbl 8, Gold Tone 6, And other instruments and equipment I can't afford.
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Donny Hinson

 

From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
Post  Posted 20 Jul 2020 2:38 pm    
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Mack, I agree. The p/p guitars do have nice sustain, better than most other guitars. I've owned a D10 p/p for over 10 years now, but seldom play it because I have other guitars I prefer more, and sustain has never been a big issue with me.

I might add there are some who know how to increase the sustain of certain guitars, but they're keeping it to themselves. Winking
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John Goux

 

From:
California, USA
Post  Posted 20 Jul 2020 3:46 pm    
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I’ve heard and played all pull guitars that sustain like a push pull, but they are the real good ones. The average all pull won’t.

I would try the black box in front of your volume pedal on your Williams. I find it increases sustain and enriches the tone.
Also, some guitars will resonate better at higher volumes, and interact with a tube amp. I think using solid state amps, and running direct through the PA, is not helping your cause.

I’d try your home rig with a Princeton Reverb and black box. Put your amp near the steel to encourage vibration. The Crate is an decent practice amp, but in this case it is not helping with your sustain issue.

Here are some possible changes that could help:

Heavier bar
Black Box after steel, before VP
Compressor
Different volume pedal
Place the steel in line of fire of your speakers
Turn up
Use a tube amp
Reverb

The tone and sustain we get is always a combination of factors, starting with your picks and bar, every piece of equipment along your signal path, to the microphone. There may be no silver bullet that solves your tone/sustain issue. But by trying a few different different equipment combinations, you can improve on your sonic stew.

John
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Leo Grassl

 

From:
Nashville TN
Post  Posted 20 Jul 2020 6:50 pm    
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I’ have to completely agree with a Asa in that some guitars sustain great and some dont. It doesn’t matter what brand. You are not crazy for noticing this and I don’t think there is much you can do about the actual sustain of a guitar that is lacking of it. As you mentioned you can get a little more sustain when playing loud because the pickup rides the volume out a little more. Because you have come to the correct conclusion that not all guitars sustain equally you can go from here and decide which ones will “cut it” for you or not. Paul Franklin said something great in another thread recently about the amount of sustain being only important to your particular style of playing. He said to compare it to how a singer phrases things. Some singers tend to sing long drawn out notes on one breath while others sing shorter notes and more staccato. It bothers me not having plenty of sustain because of how I play. However that problem for me on a particular guitar may not be the same for another player because of how he/she plays.
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Lee Baucum


From:
McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier
Post  Posted 21 Jul 2020 9:54 am    
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Fresh new strings certainly don't hurt!
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Kevin Fix

 

From:
Michigan, USA
Post  Posted 21 Jul 2020 5:31 pm    
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NYXL's here.... I have them on my Sho Bud Super Pro. I like them for sustain. Eating fried chicken and playing Pedal Steel don't get it!!!! Take the sustain right out them strings!!!
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Mack Quinney

 

From:
Texas, USA
Post  Posted 21 Jul 2020 6:27 pm    
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Thank you, all good changes to try. I like the new strings to the NYXLs and the idea of letting the amp pick up some resonance like feedback.

I love tube amps, but my back does not.

Available volume has a lot to do with it too. If I have the ability play at a louder volume I can milk the sustain with the VP.

Lastly, I use the Black Box on my gig set up. Don’t know about the sustain but it works magic on warming the tone. Best device I’ve purchase short of my steel seat!

I think I have a compressor somewhere. That and new strings are next up.

Mack
_________________
76 Emmons Push Pull, Williams 600, ShoBud Pro I, MSA Classic, Remington SteelMaster dbl 8, MSA Super Slide dbl 8, Gold Tone 6, And other instruments and equipment I can't afford.
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