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Post new topic C6 Lever positions?
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Author Topic:  C6 Lever positions?
John Goux

 

From:
California, USA
Post  Posted 22 Jun 2020 9:50 pm    
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I will be adding levers to my C6 neck, currently St 3 C-B on RKR.
Since I will be adding levers, now would be the time to reposition things.

I’m likely adding A to Bb, C to C#, A to Ab. A vertical is possible.
I’m open to suggestions. The pedals are standard Emmons.

From studying Bob’s list of C6 copeds, I noticed at a large percentage have the C-B elsewhere, RKL is common. Buddy and Jimmy Day.

Is there some ergonomic advantage to having the C-B in a different location? Is that RKR space better served with another change?

Would it make sense to have the C-C# and C-B on the same knee? On E9, I’m E’s on the left. Would it be logical to have the C’s on the left? Same concept between necks.

I’m new to the C6 neck, so I welcome your suggestions as to what changes are most useful, and where to place them, for use with other pedals, or comfort.

Thanks in advance.
John
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Ian Rae


From:
Redditch, England
Post  Posted 23 Jun 2020 12:37 am    
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John, the traditonal setup is

LKL A - G#
LKR A - Bb

RKL C - B
RKR C - C#

Some folks like a "reverse P6" - lower 2 to Eb and raise 6 to F - if you're looking for a 5th lever.

Have fun! Smile
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scott murray


From:
Asheville, NC
Post  Posted 23 Jun 2020 1:15 am    
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if you can do a vertical I recommend

LKL A - G#
LKV A - Bb
LKR C - D (3 and 7)

RKL C - B
RKR C - C#

I also recommend raising both Es to F on pedal 4 instead of the standard Bs to A. Buddy was known to do this on some guitars, though I think he only raised string 6 and left 2 alone. some players (Buck Reid is one) put the "reverse pedal 6" on pedal 4 while also raising string 10 a full step like on pedal 5. if you've got one more pedal to play with I recommend putting the string 10 raise on its own pedal, to the left of the "reverse pedal". many more combinations that way, combined with my LKR, raising Cs to D. my LKV and LKR can also combine for some nice changes, in tandem with pedal 4.

hope I'm making sense, happy hunting John Cool
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Last edited by scott murray on 23 Jun 2020 1:27 am; edited 2 times in total
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Tony Prior


From:
Charlotte NC..
Post  Posted 23 Jun 2020 1:21 am    
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Its a great question, one I have thought about thru the years as well.

I think ergonomically it depends on the particular person. Fit the levers to the person rather than the person to the levers. I'm not a big time C6th player, dangerous at best, but I am a comfortable RKR lever player so lowering 3 on C6th with RKR is natural for me, as is raising 4 on RKL. My 3rd C6th lever which raises 3 is in a position that is not natural to me so I shy away from that lever.

I believe we make a mistake when viewing copedants and setting up our instruments like someone else. As an early C6th player, Its the NOTES that matter , not necessarily where they are located on a lever. Each PRO sets up their instruments (hardware) to fit their specif style and routine. It may work for them but another it very well may NOT.

RE: If we can grab the 7th ped and lower 3 on a lever comfortably, without extra motion, then we are good. But if we struggle to grab that lever to lower 3, it may not be the right setup for us. perfect example for me , both of my Emmons Steels have lower 3 on RKR, short throw, my Sho Bud has lower 3 on RKL with no option to move it to RKR, there is no cross shaft ! plus the throw is LONG, Sho Bud long. So take a guess what I don't use when playing the Sho Bud ? Others have no issues.

We can't ask Buddy or Jimmy why they did what they did but I can imagine they had alternative reasons, such as "If I do it on this lever it frees up other changes for other levers " Buddy always thought about the big picture, he always played the "what if" game.

For us mortals, ergonomics is probably first, do lever placements fit our body OR are we trying to fit our body to the instrument ?

Once we get acclimated to the basic changes we can go re-arrange things later on in life. But first, learn how to crawl !
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John Goux

 

From:
California, USA
Post  Posted 24 Jun 2020 12:18 pm    
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The steel is now at the builder, and I am going to upgrade to 5 levers. I need to decide what will be the 5th lever.

Here are possible 5th levers:

Raise E’s to F
“Reverse P6” raise middle E to F, lower top E to Eb
String 10 Raise C to D
String 6 lower E to D (completes the major scale)
String 7 raise C to D

I’m open to suggestions. Also on position of changes.

How does this setup look:

RL C-B
RR C’s-C#
LL middle E-F, top E-Eb “Reverse P6” (This is currently the 5th lever choice)
LR A’s-Bb
Vert A’s-Ab

Thanks folks!
John
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John Swain


From:
Newberry,SC
Post  Posted 24 Jun 2020 1:03 pm    
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John, I played Buddy's 4kl setup on C6 for 30 years. In 2002 after spending some time with Doug Jernigan, I added a verticle lowering 6 to D, later adding 1st string D-Eb like Hughey had. Finally, with Buck Reid's advise, added 10th string raise to D and 2nd STR to Eb with F on 6th string on pedal 4. Also switched 4+8 raise to LKL, Which with 3+7 raise on RKR, gives another diminished without the 2nd string raising.
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John Goux

 

From:
California, USA
Post  Posted 24 Jun 2020 4:46 pm    
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Hey, how do you use the Eb on string 1? Hughey and PF have that as well. I see the D on Str 6 could be a melody note in C, or for chords? What is the use for that high Eb?

John
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Steve Schmidt


From:
Ramsey, MN, USA
Post  Posted 24 Jun 2020 5:02 pm    
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John, would you please post your C6th setup?
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John Goux

 

From:
California, USA
Post  Posted 24 Jun 2020 5:06 pm    
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Steve, the C6 floor pedals are the traditional P4 thru P8 that most players still have.
I can write them out if you like?
The knee levers are being redone now, and it’s decision time for me.
John
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Steve Schmidt


From:
Ramsey, MN, USA
Post  Posted 24 Jun 2020 6:11 pm    
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I'm sorry john. I meant John Swain. My apologies
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John Swain


From:
Newberry,SC
Post  Posted 25 Jun 2020 7:54 am    
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This is my current setup! I use 1st string raise w/ P6 as 7th, to extend the P5+6 diminished and with C# kl for descending scales.
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Scott Swartz

 

From:
St. Louis, MO
Post  Posted 25 Jun 2020 10:18 am    
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John G, definitely agree with getting available F notes, one change you did not mention is lowering G to F, you might search on that and see if that is of interest.
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John Goux

 

From:
California, USA
Post  Posted 25 Jun 2020 10:22 am    
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For the 5th lever, if you had to, which would you choose?

Reverse P6, (possibly with C-D on Str10)
Raising both E’s to F
String 6 E-D lower W/Str 1 to Eb,

As a KL, which change would you choose?
John
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Ian Rae


From:
Redditch, England
Post  Posted 25 Jun 2020 11:53 am    
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John Goux wrote:
Hey, how do you use the Eb on string 1?

For example, if you are using P5&6 to play a V13 chord back a fret on 2,3 & 5 that change restores the first string to the equivalent of a D so that it can be used melodically.

If you are playing an F chord on the upper strings with P6, that change raises the 6th to a 7th.

I'm sure there are other uses. Instead of being a separate change, it has been traditionally included on P8.
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Last edited by Ian Rae on 25 Jun 2020 3:20 pm; edited 1 time in total
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John Goux

 

From:
California, USA
Post  Posted 25 Jun 2020 12:24 pm    
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Scott, I see the G to F on PFs coped. Having an F on Str 6 is nice for melody. Reverse P6 does that. Fmaj9 with F in the middle.

How do you use the G to F change on Str 5?
And would you prioritize it over the F available on 6?
John
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John Swain


From:
Newberry,SC
Post  Posted 25 Jun 2020 3:56 pm    
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John, I'll chime re: F ,6 raise or 5 lower. Emmons, Jernigan and lately Buck Reid have always influenced my C6 playing and all three have gone with 6 raise!
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Scott Swartz

 

From:
St. Louis, MO
Post  Posted 25 Jun 2020 4:12 pm    
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I was mostly pointing it out as an option, I do have it however I dropped the low C string and have 2 D notes in the tuning basically a C13 ala Wayne Dahl and Terry Crisp, so my context is different. I would never go back to not having the Ds, but thats a whole different topic. I do have the reverse P6 but on a pedal (4) so I have both, for the E to F I like the quickness of a pedal, so thats something to think about also.
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Chris Reesor

 

From:
British Columbia, Canada
Post  Posted 26 Jun 2020 6:31 am    
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For a fifth lever, Mr. G, I would select John Swain's vertical. Look at the big stack of fourths on srings 8,6,5,3. and you can augment or diminish the fourth between 5 and 3 with your right knees. Modern quartal harmony anyone?
Fills in the missing note in my pentatonic scales too.
I am going to put this on my (so far) traditional P4.

On my uni with lock lever and 3 center knee cluster, I find myself using my standard E9 E raise lever to pull string 8 back to E for melodic purposes,(like raising C6 string 6 E to F. no?) P6 raises the upper one of course.
I raise my second string from C# to D on my traditional P8 using my right foot to get it. I'll have the see if I have enough rods and changer holes to put that change on P4 as well.

Great copedent, John Swain. Thanks for the ideas.
One question, for now: Do you use any tunable splits on your C6?
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John Swain


From:
Newberry,SC
Post  Posted 26 Jun 2020 1:07 pm    
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Chris, I split string 3, so with P7 I can have C# and B. Also string 4 with P7 for dominant 9th or minor triad ! LKV with P6 moves 7b to F6th, with P5 it puts the root in the middle and with P7 adds the 5.
Perhaps my favorite result in this setup, raising both A-Bb on LKL and both C-C# on RKR, combining with P5+6 builds a 4 chord one fret below the open chord.ei; instead of C on 5th fret w/ P7 6/56BbC# on 8 strings w/ maj7 on top and various combinations make minor, Dom 7th voicing.
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John Goux

 

From:
California, USA
Post  Posted 26 Jun 2020 2:10 pm    
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Chris, I would love to have diatonic stacked 4ths. I use that on 6 string guitar for jazz.

If by “Quartal Harmony“, you mean 4ths that follow in this manner...
Low to high
C-F-B-E,
each voice ascending along the C scale.
This is a great tool to have for both modal songs and standards. But you need to modify the voices to stay in the key.

If you mean stacks of perfect 4ths, then I have found these:
On C6
Strings 1-4-6 Open
P6 Strs 2-3-5
Only 3 notes on these but the effect is fun on blues scale. We’ve all heard Buddy do this.

It would be great to have a D in the middle of the guitar to have 4 note stacks.

John Swain has this. I think John Hughey as well.
Scott Murray by raising 7.

On E9
Open strings 4-5-7
B pedal strings 3-4-5-7...
There is a stack of 4 notes.

I’m not ready to change from the traditional C6 pedals just yet, until I’ve been on this neck for awhile. I’ve been on Ext E9. I’m enjoying the C6.

The choices for C6 knee levers are more optional. I do need to prioritize them by how useful and ergonomic they will be. That’s why I’m asking more experienced players for their advice.
I’ve got 5 coming....

Thanks,
John
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Chris Reesor

 

From:
British Columbia, Canada
Post  Posted 26 Jun 2020 8:08 pm    
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Hey Mr. Swain, it'll take me a while to haul all this aboard. The split with P7 on str.3 is obvious but some of the others not quite so much. Thanks again.

John G., I hear ya. I definitely have been looking for something with more uses for P4 and I think this could be the answer. For me.

For you, I'd vote as a non expert for raising 6 to F at least or the whole reverse P6 on that fifth lever. That is a change I wouldn't want to lose if I lucked into a nice loaded D10 Very Happy
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