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Topic: Top D note on C6. Buddy Emmons |
Greg Cutshaw
From:
Corry, PA, USA
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 30 Mar 2017 10:59 am |
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On my uni, I have nowhere to put that lever. However, because I play the Day way round, pedals A & 5 are next to each other and with those two and the vertical I get the equivalent of the A6 chord. Natural movement - job done 
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Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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John Goux
From:
California, USA
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Franklin
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Posted 14 Jun 2020 2:30 am
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Everyone pursuing Jazz and emulating E9th sounds was getting there back in the late 60's. Before pedals there was mostly 6th based tunings. Playing E9th was set in stone for Nashville players "only"...Players in Vegas, Texas, Oklahoma, were pursuing pedal sounds using the 6th tuning..E9th was not set in stone across the land..Buddy was the first to put the 9th interval "D" on top of the C6th...But tunings developed by Julian Tharpe and Maurice Anderson had the 9th and the major 7th intervals within their versions of the 6th tuning.
I suspect Buddy dug what they could do because Buddy was also inspired by Jazz guitarists. So having an easily accessible 9th interval helps - both for single notes and harmony. The more # and b9's located on the fretboard the better in that world.
Buddy was definitely the first to place it there full time. He advised I make the change in 1970. Buddy had it on top sometime after the Black album...
Jernigan uses it all the time and then he tunes it back to G to play a Classical piece and "Streets of Loredo". I don't know any modern C6th player who has a G on top. Its part of the tunings evolution..For me there is too much music missing without the D.
Probably more than anyone wanted to know but that is more of its history.
Paul |
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Dale Rivard
From:
Ontario, Canada
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Posted 14 Jun 2020 9:09 am
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Here is a recording of "Bubbles in my Beer" with Emmons and Ray Pennington. Not sure how accurate the year is but whoever posted it, claims it's 1971. Buddy is definitely using a D note on top.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMgZLJ3oWAI
Last edited by Dale Rivard on 14 Jun 2020 3:11 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Dave Magram
From:
San Jose, California, USA
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Posted 14 Jun 2020 2:50 pm
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I had a conversation some time ago with Bobby Black about this...
As I recall, Bobby said that sometime in the early 1960s, he was playing steel at the "23 Club" in Brisbane, Calif. when Buddy Emmons and Jimmy Day walked in after performing at a Ray Price concert nearby.
(This may have been when Jimmy was playing steel for Ray Price, and Buddy was hitching a ride back to Nashville from California by playing bass and twin steel for Price.)
Bobby recalls both Jimmy and Buddy crouching down in front of him as he was playing, and trying to "spook" him by making silly comments and generally trying to distract him, from a few inches in front of Bobby's guitar as a prank.
At the break, Buddy came up to Bobby and complimented him on his playing. Buddy then asked him, "What did you change on your C6 tuning to get those diatonic licks?"
Bobby told him he had been tuning his first string to a D note for some time.
A few years later, Bobby noticed that Buddy had also tuned his first string to D on some recording.
More recently Bobby told me that Steve Fishell had interviewed him for the Buddy Emmons biography he is writing, and was very intrigued by this story.
If Steve reads this thread, perhaps he can pop in and correct any errors in my recollection of it.
- Dave |
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Earnest Bovine
From:
Los Angeles CA USA
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Posted 14 Jun 2020 3:28 pm
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| Dave Magram wrote: |
Bobby recalls both Jimmy and Buddy crouching down in front of him as he was playing, and trying to "spook" him by making silly comments and generally trying to distract him, from a few inches in front of Bobby's guitar as a prank.
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Alcohol may have been a factor in this incident.
| Dave Magram wrote: |
At the break, Buddy came up to Bobby and complimented him on his playing. Buddy then asked him, "What did you change on your C6 tuning to get those diatonic licks?"
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I'm surprised that he had to ask. You would think that looking and listening would be enough. But then again, alcohol may have been a factor. |
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George Geisser
From:
Branson, Missouri, USA
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Posted 15 Jun 2020 7:08 pm
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When I rearranged the top 3 strings of my S12 Universal to D# G# and F# then I had the D and G, but on the 1st fret..Made sense to me and I'm still learning of course. And for melodies if acts like the chromatic strings of the E9
Love the history of how, who and why |
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Franklin
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Posted 16 Jun 2020 12:15 am
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It makes total sense to me that Bobby Black would have come to that conclusion in the 60's...Bobby was a very innovative melodic player and ahead of most players abilities in the 60's. Bobby Black does not get the credit he deserves. All I know was in the 60's the tunings and copedents were being worked out. I don't believe Chalker had a G string on "Big Hits" Perhaps he never did...Maybe Johnny Cox will see this and answer the curiosity.
Truth about intervals...The wider apart strings are tuned - the more frets and pedals we need to play the notes in between those tuned intervals. To play more music we need easier access to those other notes.
The D closes up the wider distances the G causes... So within 6 strings and using 1 fret above or below with the basic pedal configuration we can play 1/2 step intervals 4 3 b3 2 #1 1 7 b7 6 #5 5 b5 4 3 b3 2 (There is a lot of music possible when all of the notes are there....Because of easier access to chromatic notes, songs like "Donna Lee" became possible to play. |
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Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 16 Jun 2020 7:06 am
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Herby Wallace used G for the top string. 
Erv |
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Craig A Davidson
From:
Wisconsin Rapids, Wisconsin USA
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Posted 17 Jun 2020 9:02 am
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| I have tried both the D and the G. I would go with the G if you don't plan to do anything after 1980. Anything newer I would change to the D. A lot of the older western swing stuff lays better for me with the G on top. Just my two cents. |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 17 Jun 2020 9:15 am
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| Franklin wrote: |
| D closes up the wider distances the G causes... So within 6 strings and using 1 fret above or below with the basic pedal configuration we can play 1/2 step intervals 4 3 b3 2 #1 1 7 b7 6 #5 5 b5 4 3 b3 2 (There is a lot of music possible when all of the notes are there.... |
Thanks for that, Paul. It's good to have all the notes. Actually, the chromaticism goes all the way down to #1 1 7. A question though: What "basic pedal" do steelers today use to get that last "2" (the middle D note)? I'm using an E9ish lever to lower the 3.
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-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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John Swain
From:
Winchester, Va
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Posted 17 Jun 2020 1:09 pm
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| Bob, Jernigan and Hughey Copedents lower 6th string a whole step 3-2! |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 17 Jun 2020 3:40 pm
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| Franklin wrote: |
| Bobby Black does not get the credit he deserves. |
It was his playing in the 70s that got me hooked on pedal steel, as much as any of the usual suspects. It wasn't just that it was technically neat - it struck me as so very stylish too. And still going strong!
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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scott murray
From:
Asheville, NC
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Posted 17 Jun 2020 3:57 pm
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Bobby is a steel guitar giant, it's good to see him implicated in all this.
I agree that his playing on the Commander Cody records was hugely influential, and he really got to shine on both necks. he's definitely one of the very best!
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1965 Emmons S-10, 3x5 • Emmons LLIII D-10, 10x12 • JCH D-10, 10x12 • Beard MA-8 • Oahu Tonemaster |
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Franklin
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Posted 17 Jun 2020 5:20 pm
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In 74 I got the idea from Lenny Breau to lower the 6th a whole tone to D on the #9 or NightLife pedal. That pedal allows playing diatonic 4ths up the neck..Harmonically taking lessons with Lenny Breau proved to be priceless! I changed my copedent to what it is today from Lenny's ideas.
Paul |
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Jeff Harbour
From:
Western Ohio, USA
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Posted 17 Jun 2020 7:18 pm
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| Franklin wrote: |
Truth about intervals...The wider apart strings are tuned - the more frets and pedals we need to play the notes in between those tuned intervals. To play more music we need easier access to those other notes. |
I have been told that this is why Tom Morrell eventually abandoned his experimental 12-string tuning with the middle strings tuned like a standard guitar. He didn't like how many pedals it required. A bit in left field, I know... but, that's what came to mind when I read this. |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 18 Jun 2020 1:01 am
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| Paul Franklin also wrote: |
| Truth about intervals...The wider apart strings are tuned - the more frets and pedals we need to play the notes in between those tuned intervals. To play more music we need easier access to those other notes |
and the converse is also true - it's a trade-off.
The concert harp is completely diatonic with seven pedals to raise and lower each named note a half step. Melodies come naturally but chords require large grips. On the other hand a guitar can play a chord on a bunch of adjacent strings, a trick which the harpist must often envy, although he can whoosh up and down a scale while the most fun we get is strumming that chord.
The pedals on a steel guitar started life as a chord-changing device and their melodic use came later. So we are now in the middle ground between harp and guitar, where we're not sure how desirable it is to move the bar to play a tune
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 18 Jun 2020 6:36 am
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Buddy Emmons always talked about "playing in pockets".
Erv |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 18 Jun 2020 11:21 am
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Yes, and to me that's an acceptance that a melody will incur bar movement within the confines of that pocket, without it really counting as a wholesale change of fret position.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 18 Jun 2020 11:33 am
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Yes,
That's how I interpreted it also.
Erv |
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Franklin
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Posted 18 Jun 2020 7:34 pm
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Ian,
The Piano is completely chromatic and it plays both wide intervals as well as close intervals without a trade off. So can I on my C6th...
I have an almost complete chromatic C6th using my copedent and I can play all of the wider tuned stuff as well..It also eliminated the pocket approach. Interestingly Hal guided Buddy into changing his view towards pockets and Buddy started using more pedals to get him out of those old pockets. The pocket thing came from playing non-pedals which is how Buddy approached single notes. So when Buddy laid out the pockets as a lesson he was not considering the pedal possibilities - only the top of the guitar... The various pedals multiply all of those pocket possibilities...When its a chromatic copedent every fret becomes a pocket of useful intervals/notes.
For my playing, the whole fret board opened up once the pedals offered chromatics. The freedom that presents is infinite. Thanks to Lenny Breau who analyzed my copedent and guided me towards finding more chromatics instead of going away from them..Its definitely not a trade off when both the wider and close intervals are within the tuning.
Last edited by Franklin on 20 Jun 2020 1:37 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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John Goux
From:
California, USA
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Posted 18 Jun 2020 9:24 pm
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Yay for Bobby Black. The Commander Cody stuff was an inspiration to a lot of players. But when you hear Bobby play C6, and even non pedal, you realize what a special musician he is.
John |
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Ron Hogan
From:
Nashville, TN, usa
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 20 Jun 2020 4:14 pm
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Another revelatory post from Paul Franklin - we are truly blessed that he takes the time to do this!
I always assumed that the pocket approach was an intrinsic part of C6 playing in contrast to the E9 where it's more acceptable to stay still and trust to pedals. But I now realise that things have moved on. Of course I'm still at an early to intermediate stage in my playing where I can still learn a lot from old-fashioned books, but I take to heart what Paul says, especially as I play a universal and in theory have a full house of chromatic notes available. I can actually play a C scale (in C6 terms) without moving the bar, but it never occurs to me to do so if I'm following tab from last century.
Time to get myself up to date!
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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