| Visit Our Catalog at SteelGuitarShopper.com |
Sept 23 System Update. If you see an Error or Warning at the
top of the page, report it to SteelGuitarForum@gmail.com.

Post new topic Which came first, Sand or Nuages?
Reply to topic
Author Topic:  Which came first, Sand or Nuages?
Andrew Frost


From:
Toronto, Ontario
Post  Posted 8 Jun 2020 12:15 pm    
Reply with quote

Andy Iona's original version of Sand doesn't seem to feature that chromatic descending line that is so similar to Django Reinhardt's Nuages. Was it Jules Ah See who later introduced that line as a tag at the end? Many versions obviously use that phrase as an intro as well, but it seems to have evolved into being a part of the song when it perhaps wasn't originally so pronounced.
Any historical info appreciated.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail

Mike Neer


From:
NJ
Post  Posted 8 Jun 2020 12:21 pm    
Reply with quote

I believe Sand predates Nuages (1940) by 3 or 4 years, but I don’t think there is anything at all that links them other than the intro which was added years later.

On another note, the intro to ‘Round Midnight was added after the fact by Dizzy Gillespie and everyone adopted it, including Monk.
_________________
Buy Steelonious!
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website

Nic Neufeld


From:
Kansas City, Missouri
Post  Posted 8 Jun 2020 1:58 pm    
Reply with quote

The intro that Jerry Byrd added wasn't used by Andy or Jules. Just an addition that JB came up with (and given his influence on so many players, common to many later versions). That's the part that sounds the most like Nuages to me, although from what I've read, Jerry denied any direct influence there.

Jules played the same outro that Andy Iona wrote, but I think added that little staccato 9th chord chromatic descent...that may be what you are referring to, and I'd bet he just improvised it as a fill.
_________________
Waikīkī, at night when the shadows are falling
I hear the rolling surf calling
Calling and calling to me
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail

Andrew Frost


From:
Toronto, Ontario
Post  Posted 8 Jun 2020 4:52 pm    
Reply with quote

Yes that makes sense. It seems like Jules played that chromatic descending line over the coda as a fill and it begat the Jerry Byrd intro.
Interesting that there are so many interpretations of those outro chord changes. Some are I, bVII, some are I, IVm6 and it sounds like Jules kept it simple with I, IV9.
Mike, Round Midnight is a hauntingly beautiful melody. I didn't know that about the intro.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail

Mitch Drumm

 

From:
Frostbite Falls, hard by Veronica Lake
Post  Posted 8 Jun 2020 8:49 pm    
Reply with quote

Nuages: did Django record it before October 1940?? I've got 5 versions, but I'm not sure of the order or dates.

Is this the original version of Sand? If so, it’s supposedly from December 1939:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EcG-31ga5e0

I have read that Andy wrote it in 1930, but don't know if that's true and wonder why it would be unrecorded until 1939?

Then there is this, from Feb 1940, presumably a cover of Iona. Anyone heard it?

Freddie Tavares?


View user's profile Send private message

Mitch Drumm

 

From:
Frostbite Falls, hard by Veronica Lake
Post  Posted 9 Jun 2020 12:25 am    
Reply with quote

Answering one of my own questions:

Yes, that is the original version of "Sand".

Recorded in Los Angeles; December 15, 1939.


His first recordings were a series of 6 songs in January 1929, on which he played clarinet and tenor saxophone, with Sol Ho'opi'i on steel.

There's then a 5 year gap to August 1934, with Danny Stewart on steel.

He doesn't appear to have played steel on his own records until 1935.

Regarding Nuages, I found this from a Django bio.

I assume the reference to the very first recording not being issued means not issued at that time-----with the "hit" version being done 10 weeks later.

The October version has cymbals audible in the first 10 seconds. On the December version, the cymbals are replaced by what sounds like a tom drum.

There's a later version with Grappelli kicking it off and another with just Django's solo electric guitar. The former is from 1949/1950. The latter from circa 1951/1952.



View user's profile Send private message

Nic Neufeld


From:
Kansas City, Missouri
Post  Posted 9 Jun 2020 4:34 am    
Reply with quote

Andrew Frost wrote:
Yes that makes sense. It seems like Jules played that chromatic descending line over the coda as a fill and it begat the Jerry Byrd intro.


Studying the Jules version from "Hawaiian Shores" (the only one widely circulated right? There's a nice one on YT with a vibraphone I also like) a bit recently, the magic is in all the "inter vocal" fills. So he's obviously playing the vocal melodic lines, and does a smoothly melodic job of it too, but its in the "puka" between phrases that he throws in some of the coolest stuff I think...early on he does that bit with the bar on second fret but open on second string, down to first fret all the way to the second string. Took me a while to get how he did that. And don't get me started on the cool Maj7 sounds with a "B" in it. After conjecturing for a while that he might have been using a pedal steel (too early for that) I am now of the opinion he used his second C13 neck with the second string detuned to get those notes.

Here was my quite humble attempt that my guitarist and I did remotely during the ongoing lockdown recently (I really don't know how to operate a vibraphone, sorry Smile ):
https://soundcloud.com/tropicstrings/sand

PS...I haven't worked out quite the arrangement I like yet, but I feel like Nuages could work in B11 fairly nicely...
_________________
Waikīkī, at night when the shadows are falling
I hear the rolling surf calling
Calling and calling to me
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail

Andrew Frost


From:
Toronto, Ontario
Post  Posted 9 Jun 2020 9:25 pm    
Reply with quote

That's some tasteful playing there Nic, well done! I like the nod to the Cmaj7 sounds you were mentioning.
I've been exploring six string A11 - everything down a tone from B11. I think of it as A7/G6. Playing in C is nice then with the open B on string 2.

I think that chromatic descending motif was just part of the zeitgeist at that time. Alot of tunes from that era had something like that going on, like Moon of Manakoora for example. Although Sand originally seems to predate Nuages I would bet Jules was loosely quoting Django in his playing and it just caught on.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail

Andrew Frost


From:
Toronto, Ontario
Post  Posted 9 Jun 2020 9:48 pm    
Reply with quote

Thanks for the info Mitch. I was wondering if that version was indeed the original.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail

Andy Volk


From:
Boston, MA
Post  Posted 10 Jun 2020 3:02 am    
Reply with quote

Nuages works very well in both B11 and D9th tunings.

In the late 1980s, I directly asked Jerry Byrd about the relationship between Nuages and Sand. He replied (in a letter) that he was familiar with a lot of what Django did but didn't know Nuages and doubted there could be any relation between the two. We'll never have a definitive answer.
_________________
Steel Guitar Books! Website: www.volkmediabooks.com
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website

Andrew Frost


From:
Toronto, Ontario
Post  Posted 14 Jun 2020 2:13 pm    
Reply with quote

Andy Volk wrote:
Nuages works very well in both B11 and D9th tunings.

In the late 1980s, I directly asked Jerry Byrd about the relationship between Nuages and Sand. He replied (in a letter) that he was familiar with a lot of what Django did but didn't know Nuages and doubted there could be any relation between the two. We'll never have a definitive answer.


Interesting! Thanks Andy
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail


All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Jump to:  
Please review our Forum Rules and Policies
Our Online Catalog
Strings, CDs, instruction, and steel guitar accessories
www.SteelGuitarShopper.com

The Steel Guitar Forum
148 S. Cloverdale Blvd.
Cloverdale, CA 95425 USA

Click Here to Send a Donation

Email SteelGuitarForum@gmail.com for technical support.


BIAB Styles
Ray Price Shuffles for Band-in-a-Box
by Jim Baron