| Author |
Topic: Swapping knee lever changes on a GFI Ultra U12 |
Chris Marinelli
From:
Pittsburgh, USA
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Posted 27 May 2020 7:53 am |
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Can anyone with some experience changing copedents on a GFI tell me how easy this would be for a first-timer?
I'd like to swap my current LKR change (Lower Es a 1/2 step) and RKL change(Lower 5th sting B a 1/2 step) as this is an E9/B6 Uni and it seems the consensus is that lowering Es on the Right Knee is a whole lot easier once you start trying to reach pedals 5-7 while holding in the lever.
I know many Uni players think lowering Es on RKR is easier than RKL, but that would involve switching around 3 levers as opposed to just swapping the two, and I'm already scared enough 
Any advice would be appreciated!
Thanks y'all. |
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Jerry Overstreet
From:
Louisville Ky
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Posted 27 May 2020 9:29 am
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I don't think you would gain much by going to RKL with your E lower. You're probably better off leaving in where it is. Every Universal guitar I've ever owned, I have been able to reach all the pedals just fine lowering Es on LKR.
If you feel you must move it, then RKR is the way to go.
Although I'm familiar with GFI mechanics, I've never actually done any changes on one. If it is an all pull guitar rather than a student model, changes should be easy enough to do provided you note where everything is before any disassembly. Take lots of notes and pictures. Mark where every rod is located at both the bell crank and the guitar changer. If you have any mechanical ability and proper tools, you should be able to handle the job. Best of luck. |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 27 May 2020 10:08 am
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RKR. Although it's possible to reach all the B6 pedals while holding in the LKR, you need to be able to rock between each adjacent pair, and I certainly couldn't do that.
RKL won't help much.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Bobby D. Jones
From:
West Virginia, USA
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Posted 27 May 2020 11:15 am
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I have 2 GFI Ultras. I bought used and changed from Emmons to Jeff Newman Universal copendents.
The GFI is pretty easy to move pulls on.
Start by making yourself a rod chart of the 2 KL's you are trading. Make a chart to keep things right.
Just pencil the in on your copendent chart.
DOES YOUR 2ND STRING LOWER FROM D# TO C# WITH THE LOWERING OF 4 AND 8?
Turn the guitar over and trace the rods and make a chart to keep the rods correct.
EXAMPLE
First number Changer Hole/Second number Bell Crank.
String 2 5/7 May have to switch 7 hole bell crank to other lever cross rod.
String 4 4/6
String 8 4/6
Make a chart for the other knee lever that is to be moved.
It is simple to remove the rods. Just loosen the set screw in the brass connector on the bell crank and you can pull the rod out through the changer by its tuning nut. Back the nylon tuning nut off till 1/4 inch in nut.
Move bell cranks on cross rods to match strings on both cross rods. Then re-rod with proper length rod.
Once rods and bell cranks moved. Take 1 string at a time and adjust and tune the raise or lower. Do the smaller string first then the larger next.
GFI has stops on both sides of the knee levers, You will need a small wrench and hex wrench to adjust.
I rearranged the pull on the LKR and made it a horizontal lever for the B lower on string 5 and is out of your way.
I will send you a private message with my phone No. if you need other information.
I live off I 79 Exit 132 in West Virginia. We could meet if necessary. |
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Jerry Overstreet
From:
Louisville Ky
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Posted 27 May 2020 11:57 am
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Concerning using all the pedals/levers from LKR, everybody and every body is different. FWIW, I played Sierra's set up off and on for several years with 8 floor pedals using the lowers on LKR. They did have loks, but I didn't have to use them.
The GFI is a relatively compact guitar and with only 7 pedals, it would not be a problem for me. But you need to set it up to suit yourself.
Jeff Newman and other U12 players advocated RKR for E lowers on a Uni. I think that would be the ticket if you are going to move it from LKR. JMO. |
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Chris Marinelli
From:
Pittsburgh, USA
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Posted 27 May 2020 12:15 pm
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Being that I am a total beginner, I'm trying to get it set up in a way that I won't have to change it later when I hopefully start to use the pedals past 1-3. I can certainly reach 4-7 with LKR held in, but I wouldn't say it's entirely comfortable to try and use them effectively while holding the lever in. What pedal combinations are most commonly used while holding in the lever lowering Es?
I may just make do as it is for now and change things up once I have more experience.
Secondarily, for those of you that have switched your knee levers around and split up your "Es", how long does it take to relearn and not keep hitting the wrong lever?? |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 27 May 2020 1:26 pm
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| Chris Marinelli wrote: |
| What pedal combinations are most commonly used while holding in the lever lowering Es? |
The pedals 4-7 are normally known as pedals 5-8, the original pedal 4 having become extinct on most models; although on your GFI they are probably in the order 8,5,6,7. The point is that they are called after what they traditionally do, not where they are situated.
The home position with Es lowered is 5-6 (which are coincidentally the 5th and 6th pedals on your guitar).
The most common combinations are known as
56
57
58
67
78
although to you they will look like
56
57
45
67
47
You will need a volume pedal that's not too floppy so you can move your right foot off and on again without disturbing the sound.
If you're confused that's understandable.
| Chris also wrote: |
| How long does it take to relearn and not keep hitting the wrong lever?? |
No time at all if it's obviously easier than before 
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Dave Hopping
From:
Aurora, Colorado
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Posted 27 May 2020 1:37 pm
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I use RKL to lower E's on my Mullen U-12--it's my second most used change.My most used change is the 2nd string D#to D lower/9th string B to D raise,so it's on RKR.I get better leverage with my volume pedal foot,so my most used KLs are on that side of my steel.
Last edited by Dave Hopping on 27 May 2020 4:42 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 27 May 2020 1:55 pm
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Just my $0.02, but on universal, I definitely prefer E=>Eb on RKL, and definitely do not find it at all convenient on the left knee. I think, by far, most E9/B6 universal players put E=>Eb on the right knee. I could live with RKR, but the outward knee movement is definitely more uncomfortable for me, especially for any extended period of time.
I do not doubt that personal ergonomics plays a role here. I'm tall and legs/arms disproportionately long even for my tall frame. I don't know if that has anything to do with it, but the inward knee movement is much more comfortable for me. The outward motion definitely hits my groin muscles adversely.
I personally put my B=>Bb lever on LKV, and G#=>F# on LKR. I agree that all this is, again, strictly personal preference. But I use the combination of G#=>F# and E=>Eb a lot and squeezing them together is much more sure for me. I'm also hitting pedals a lot using those levers, either separately or together - so having the knee lever combination comfortable is real important to me.
I definitely recommend keeping B=>Bb and E=>Eb on opposite knees, since they're frequently used together. Same with G#=>F# (opposite E=>Eb) if you have it, same reasoning. Since it requires less monkeying around, I'd try switching E=>Eb and B=>Bb first. If that doesn't feel good, moving E=>Eb to RKR might be a reasonable option, depending on what you have there. Many setups put D#=>D=>C# on string 2 and D=>C# on string 9 on RKR - string 2 has a half-stop with a detent at D. If that's what you have, I'd suggest only moving that if you really need to, since it's a bit more tricky to set up correctly. |
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Dave Hopping
From:
Aurora, Colorado
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Posted 27 May 2020 1:59 pm
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I use RKL to lower E's on my Mullen U-12--it's my second most used change.My most used change is the 2nd string D#to D lower/9th string B to D raise,so it's on RKR.I get better leverage with my volume pedal foot,so my most used KLs are on that side of my steel.
Last edited by Dave Hopping on 27 May 2020 4:43 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Jerry Overstreet
From:
Louisville Ky
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Posted 27 May 2020 2:27 pm
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Here's the copedents LINKS button so that you can see what some other players Do/Are Doing on the Uni.
Bottom line...it has to suit you. Nothing worse than a pedal steel with awkward ergonomics for a player.
Best of Luck and Happy Pickin' |
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Chris Marinelli
From:
Pittsburgh, USA
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Posted 27 May 2020 5:11 pm
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| Thanks for the advice everyone! After some messing around on my steel, I feel like lowering my Es would be most comfy on RKL. As it is now, my 9th string B to D raise is already on RKR. LKL raises Es, LKV is F#>G, and RKL is B>A#. So I think I'll probably just swap RKL and LKR and call it a day. Anything I should be aware of swapping these two (B>A# and E>D#) around? Any pitfalls I'm not seeing about how the other knees are set up? Trying to do this as simply as possible without screwing up the instrument. I'm really itching to get started learning how to play it instead of figuring out how to set it up! |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 27 May 2020 6:43 pm
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I have made this exact change or one similar (e.g., swapping G#=>F# on RKL and E=>Eb on LKR) on a number of different guitars (Zum, Mullen, BMI, Franklin, Emmons Le Grande, JCH, Sho Bud, and maybe another one or two), and it's always been a relatively simple swap. But I've never worked on a GFI, so I can't advise you of any special issues with them. But I can tell you this - if you decide to do the work yourself, be extremely deliberate.
First, carefully diagram how the bellcranks and changer holes are set up - which bellcrank slot and changer hole goes with what pull, how are the return springs set, where are the stops on the levers and how much travel do they have, and so on. I suggest making close-up pictures and/or a movie of the entire undercarriage, with good closeup shots of the bellcranks and changer.
If it just seems overwhelming, stop and think about it some more. But if you get the point where you really think you understand exactly what's going on and are not put off by the complexity, proceed very, very slowly and carefully. As much as possible, take off just the pulls you need. However you may run into a situation where you have to take off another pull to get at the one you want. For each lever, try to replicate as exactly as possible how everything was set up when it was on the other lever - don't try to "improve" things yet. First, just get the two levers switched with no collateral damage and working exacty as they were previously.
My suggestion is that if you can accomplish this much, you've done well for a first shot. And don't be afraid to say, "I don't think I'm up to this." Better to leave it as-is than to screw it up. |
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Chris Marinelli
From:
Pittsburgh, USA
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Posted 28 May 2020 3:14 am
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| Thanks Dave, sounds like wise advice for sure. |
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Chris Marinelli
From:
Pittsburgh, USA
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Posted 31 May 2020 12:33 pm
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| So I was FINALLY able to get the knee levers swapped around after much trial and error getting my Es to lower properly (turned out I needed to add travel to the lever). In doing so I realized that this E>D# lever is rodded to allow me to drop my 2nd string D# to C# at the same time. Anyone have opinions on if this is a worthwhile move? It is not included in GFIs standard U12 copedent from the factory, and I don't know enough to weigh the pros and cons of this change. Also, if it is worthwhile, and ideas which bell crank slot/changer slot would be needed to get D# to drop a whole tone? |
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Gene Tani
From:
Pac NW
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Posted 31 May 2020 1:32 pm
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Congrats on your first rerodding, pretty big step, actually
That whole tone lower on string 2 is in their std e9 coped: https://www.gfimusicalproducts.com/documentation.html#E9Copedent
so you could look at a single or double 10 neck's rodding to see how it's done.
_________________
- keyless Sonny Jenkins laps stay in tune forever!; Carter PSG
- The secret sauce: polyester sweatpants to buff your picks, cheapo Presonus channel strip for preamp/EQ/compress/limiter, Diet Mountain Dew |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 31 May 2020 2:31 pm
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| Quote: |
| In doing so I realized that this E>D# lever is rodded to allow me to drop my 2nd string D# to C# at the same time. Anyone have opinions on if this is a worthwhile move? |
My Zum U12 is set up that way - 2nd string D#=>C# lower with strings 4/8 E=>D# lower on RKL, and 2nd string D#=>D lower along with 9th string B=>D raise on RKR.
Yes, 2nd string D#=>C# is a very useful change - listen to the contrary motion on Ray Price's Touch My Heart with Buddy Emmons on steel - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pM11nQZHacU - and search for discussions on the Emmons Cross move for examples of some of how to use this lever.
A lot of players set their 2nd string lower as D#=>D=>C# on a single change, with the D as a feel stop. But it is sometimes hard to precisely feel that feel stop, so sometimes they're put on separate lever changes for a totally positive stop on both of them. I like it like that a lot, but I do find sometimes that I'd rather not have that change when using my E-lowers. So in that case, I just back off that 2nd string nylon and, voila, back to "normal". But it's nice to have it available. I do this with some other changes periodically - e.g., on my Zum U12, the 6th string G#=>F# lower if it's interfering with 1st string F#=>G# and/or 2nd string D#=>E raises, which are also on that lever (for me, LKR). But I would never completely do without that G#=>F#, and I have nowhere else to put it unless I want to add levers to that Zum - I don't wanna mess with it, it's fine as-is. |
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Chris Reesor
From:
British Columbia, Canada
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Posted 31 May 2020 5:11 pm
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Lots of U12 players lower string 2 to C# along with the E lowers. It will make the lever throw a little longer and stiffer but you'll get used to it.
(Lower 2 to D on another lever that usually raises string 9 B to D . Some players lower string 8 to D on that lever, allowing them to eliminate pedal 6 and get rid of the double foot move to get the P5 - P7 combination. If you went that way it would be best to place that lever on the same (right) knee as the E lowers).
This makes string 2 the equivalent of the first string D on many C6 copedents. Then the first string F# is the equivalent of the G some players have in that position.
Your third string is now the 6th tone of your B6 chord, which 10 string C6 setups don't have.
Throw in that lever and hold it and strings 1 to 10 give you two octaves of a B major/ G# minor pentatonic scale. The only note missing is the lower C# and bar movement or the A pedal fixes that.
Try it, you'll like it.
_________________
Excel Superb U12, MIJ Squier tele, modified Deluxe Reverb RI, Cube 80XL, self built acoustics & mandolins |
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Chris Marinelli
From:
Pittsburgh, USA
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Posted 31 May 2020 8:14 pm
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| Thanks all. My steel already has the E to D lower on the 2nd string along with the B to D move. I'll try to add the d# to c# change tomorrow. |
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Gene Tani
From:
Pac NW
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