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Topic: Muting Chords for Pick/Fingertip Blockers |
John Goux
From:
California, USA
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Posted 28 Apr 2020 9:34 pm |
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I have a muting question for the pick blockers.
For those that use the Paul Franklin or Joe Wright style pick blocking, or finger-tip blocking.
You are moving back and forth between these common chord inversions,
E moving to A7 and back to Emajor. .
As follows:
E. Fret 7 AB pedals, strings 10-8-6.
A7. Fret 5, no pedals, Strings 10-9-6.
When moving from the E to A7, what mutes string 8?
When moving from A7 to E, what mutes string 9?
Are you using your palm? I am curious if the side of the thumb would work here. You need the blade of the thumb pick to strike St 10 on both chords.
How do you guys play this cleanly and and smoothly and not have Strings 8 and 9 not ringing over through the slide and next chord?
John |
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Kenneth Mennen
From:
Wisconsin, USA
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Posted 30 Apr 2020 5:02 am
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| Right or wrong, I make extensive use of the side of my thumb to mute low strings. I even modify my thumb picks to allow my thumb and not the pick to do the muting. I've only been playing a couple of years, so maybe this approach is a bad habit? Maybe so, but it certainly works for me... |
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Bill Terry
From:
Bastrop, TX
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Posted 30 Apr 2020 5:15 am
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I pick block, and I use the tip of my bar thumb to mute lower strings moving up, i.e. hitting 9, them muting it with my left hand thumb as the bar moves up (across) before I hit 8. I'd have to sit down at the guitar to see what I do going the other way.
The funny thing about that bar thumb mute is that I didn't even realize I was doing it. I just happened to notice what I was doing one day while working on something.. weird. I've since heard of other players doing it too, so I don't think it's that unusual. |
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Gene Tani
From:
Pac NW
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Posted 30 Apr 2020 6:23 am
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Vids by Paul Franklin, James Shelton, Mickey Adams, Paul Sutherland, lots of others: search on youtube for "pedal steel pick block vs palm"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWEh70mkiQ8&
Or you could consider signing up for lessons..
_________________
- keyless Sonny Jenkins laps stay in tune forever!; Carter PSG
- The secret sauce: polyester sweatpants to buff your picks, cheapo Presonus channel strip for preamp/EQ/compress/limiter, Diet Mountain Dew
Last edited by Gene Tani on 30 Apr 2020 11:51 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Greg Cutshaw
From:
Corry, PA, USA
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Posted 30 Apr 2020 10:04 am
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| I can't see just sticking with one style of blocking. Palm blocking is awesome for chords and easy to learn. It is also great for staccato sounds. Pick blocking works great at faster tempos. Certain fingerings and sequences are easier to do with certain blocking styles. Pick blocking, palm blocking and various uses of the thumb and fingers of both hands are all useful. |
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John McClung
From:
Olympia WA, USA
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Posted 30 Apr 2020 4:31 pm
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What Greg Cutshaw said... I blend palm blocking, pick blocking, fingertip blocking, left thumb blocking, left middle finger blocking behind the bar nose, right pinky under strings 1 and 2 blocking, anything that works, anything goes.
_________________
E9 INSTRUCTION
▪️ If you want to have an ongoing discussion, please email me, don't use the Forum messaging which I detest! steelguitarlessons@earthlink.net |
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Ron Hogan
From:
Nashville, TN, usa
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Posted 1 May 2020 5:09 am Re: Muting Chords for Pick/Fingertip Blockers
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| John Goux wrote: |
I have a muting question for the pick blockers.
For those that use the Paul Franklin or Joe Wright style pick blocking, or finger-tip blocking.
You are moving back and forth between these common chord inversions,
E moving to A7 and back to Emajor. .
As follows:
E. Fret 7 AB pedals, strings 10-8-6.
A7. Fret 5, no pedals, Strings 10-9-6.
When moving from the E to A7, what mutes string 8?
When moving from A7 to E, what mutes string 9?
Are you using your palm? I am curious if the side of the thumb would work here. You need the blade of the thumb pick to strike St 10 on both chords.
How do you guys play this cleanly and and smoothly and not have Strings 8 and 9 not ringing over through the slide and next chord?
John |
John, I'm like John & Greg. I do all the moves that help me. Palm, finger tip, pick block and bar hand block. It wasn't till recently when I was breaking down my technique that I found I was using the Buddy Emmons ring finger block on C6 and never knew it,
Sample here
Video sample
Ron |
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Stuart Legg
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Posted 1 May 2020 10:30 am
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BO Legg Pick Blocking method
Click Here |
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Ron Funk
From:
Ballwin, Missouri
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Posted 1 May 2020 4:57 pm
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John -
On E9th neck, don't forget that you also have an A7th at the 8th fret by engaging your E to F lever
That would let you stay on strings 10, 8 and 6 between the Closed E and A7th positions
or you could alternate string grips between the two positions for your desired chord's voicings
But you probably already knew that.....
(sorry) |
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John McClung
From:
Olympia WA, USA
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Posted 1 May 2020 6:25 pm Re: Muting Chords for Pick/Fingertip Blockers
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| John Goux wrote: |
I have a muting question for the pick blockers.
For those that use the Paul Franklin or Joe Wright style pick blocking, or finger-tip blocking.
You are moving back and forth between these common chord inversions,
E moving to A7 and back to Emajor. .
As follows:
E. Fret 7 AB pedals, strings 10-8-6.
A7. Fret 5, no pedals, Strings 10-9-6.
When moving from the E to A7, what mutes string 8?
When moving from A7 to E, what mutes string 9?
Are you using your palm? I am curious if the side of the thumb would work here. You need the blade of the thumb pick to strike St 10 on both chords.
How do you guys play this cleanly and and smoothly and not have Strings 8 and 9 not ringing over through the slide and next chord?
John |
John Goux, I'd likely just use a 9-6-5 grip for the A7, intervals are a little more spread out and sound a bit better to my ear. In which case, the back of my thumb could block out the intial string 10. And I'd just let string 8 keep ringing, adding root to the A7. It's likely the heel of my right hand is in fact blocking out string 10.
I think the key to blocking is using every tool you can, and follow a sensible and logical method. Travis Toy demonstrated a bit of his "fingering logic" at an SWSGA seminar 3 years ago that impressed me.
_________________
E9 INSTRUCTION
▪️ If you want to have an ongoing discussion, please email me, don't use the Forum messaging which I detest! steelguitarlessons@earthlink.net |
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John Goux
From:
California, USA
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Posted 1 May 2020 9:50 pm
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Hi John. I’ve been enjoying that dom7 9-8-6 and 9-6-5 and the diminished sequences it encourages.
Been using more variety in strings grips and not just the using standard ones.
Hence the question about muting ringing strings in non standard chord grips.
What did Travis Toy say about blocking chords? How would Travis, a dedicated pick blocker, mute ringing strings in the interior of chords?
John |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 2 May 2020 4:17 am
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| I'm with Ron and John M, I'd use another voicing that makes the chord sound better, and is also easier to play. But if I had to play the voicing as indicated, I'd palm mute the major, and then play the 7th. I don't see the muting of "inside" strings as something regularly done. |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 2 May 2020 10:18 am
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| The main thing is to have an orientation of the right hand so pick/fingertip and palm muting are both instantly available options. I am trying to develop as a pick blocker and have been working on this same problem. Pick blocking 9 when moving from 10-9-6 to 10-8-6 is awkward at best. Just drop the palm... |
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John McClung
From:
Olympia WA, USA
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Posted 2 May 2020 12:27 pm
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| John Goux wrote: |
Hi John. I’ve been enjoying that dom7 9-8-6 and 9-6-5 and the diminished sequences it encourages.
Been using more variety in strings grips and not just the using standard ones.
Hence the question about muting ringing strings in non standard chord grips.
What did Travis Toy say about blocking chords? How would Travis, a dedicated pick blocker, mute ringing strings in the interior of chords?
John |
JG:
Travis walked through how choice of fingers to pick with often was dictated by where his fingers had to end up for the next notes in the correct position, so it does require prior knowledge of known and useful note patterns. He'd start a phrase, then mutter "Nope!" and replay it with better fingering. Very enlightening to watch his process. And it's based on where fingers are, then where they need to be, and be playable and relatively easy to do (for him, of course!), so completely logical and sensible.
Going back to your original string blocking question: I just sat at my steel and for that move from closed E, fret 7, 10-8-6, to open A7, 9-8-6, discovered I palm block that move.
But then made a discovery: the same exact A7 voicing is right there at fret 7 if you split pedal A and LKV lowering both B's to A#: AB+LKV, 10-9-7, b7-1-3. Viola!
_________________
E9 INSTRUCTION
▪️ If you want to have an ongoing discussion, please email me, don't use the Forum messaging which I detest! steelguitarlessons@earthlink.net
Last edited by John McClung on 2 May 2020 3:36 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Franklin
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Posted 2 May 2020 3:32 pm
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John Goux,
The index pick blocks it..... Chances are you are lifting your fingers too far away from the strings as you switch those groupings. Get a metronome and practice it slowly going from one group to the next so you can train your mind to stay close to the strings....Picking deeply in the strings and staying close to the strings allows the back side of the index nail to stop the 8th string....
The bar is the heart...If that was a ballad move the thumb in front of the bar blocking would eliminate emotional options....You will hear all kinds of solutions....But Buddy Emmons evolved technique into what I, Tommy, and this generation of players need to be able to play anything....The palm (Either the thumb side or the pinky side) The ring, pinky, or both fingertips following the path of the middle pick and finally the picks block all strings we re-strike or as in your question only one finger moved which is the picks job....
Learn the 3 Element technique that Buddy, Tommy, and I pursued and no other blocking elements are needed...
Technique always comes up in my clinics and I jokingly say "I can pick a string and reach up with my elbow to block the string - It works! But that does not mean its a good thing to do" The truth is you should not need everything to block and play to the levels of proficiency Buddy and Tommy can .....How well we learn blocking technique really does matter for our tone and the emotion we can reach as musicians. Choose different options and brick walls will appear....
Paul |
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John Goux
From:
California, USA
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Posted 3 May 2020 12:53 pm
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Thanks Paul!
I’ll try these today...
†Picking deeply in the strings and staying close to the strings allows the back side of the index nail to stop the 8th string.... â€
“ The palm (Either the thumb side or the pinky side) The ring, pinky, or both fingertips following the path of the middle pick and finally the picks block all strings we re-strike or as in your question only one finger moved which is the picks job.... “
My example had simple 3 note chords where the index finger has a string change that needs to be muted while the thumb needs to stay home.
That could occur anywhere on the neck.
The more you learn about the E9 fingerboard and use non standard grips, these muting situations come up.
The question is not about finding consecutive chords on the same strings sets, but how we steel players “need to be able to play anything†like you and Tommy White can.
John |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 3 May 2020 1:10 pm
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| John Goux wrote: |
The more you learn about the E9 fingerboard and use non standard grips, these muting situations come up.
John |
Bang on. Let’s call them “Mute-ationsâ€... |
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Franklin
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Posted 3 May 2020 3:15 pm
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| John Goux wrote: |
Thanks Paul!
My example had simple 3 note chords where the index finger has a string change that needs to be muted while the thumb needs to stay home.
That could occur anywhere on the neck.
The more you learn about the E9 fingerboard and use non standard grips, these muting situations come up.
The question is not about finding consecutive chords on the same strings sets, but how we steel players “need to be able to play anything†like you and Tommy White can.
John |
Hi John, your last paragraph is spot on the mark....20 or so years later, players that find work arounds hit the brick walls I referenced.
Let me know how it works.....Stay safe!
Paul |
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Stuart Legg
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Posted 3 May 2020 8:28 pm
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| Stuart Legg wrote: |
BO Legg Pick Blocking method
Click Here |
I know you think I'm trying to hijack the topic with that funny Bo topic about pick blocking.
In truth everything there is common practices in (Pickblocking +) except for the way Bo bends
his picks. But I've never seen any two players that their picks looked the same! |
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John Goux
From:
California, USA
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Posted 5 May 2020 8:10 pm
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Fred, love it. “Mute ations†.
John |
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Jacek Jakubek
From:
Mississauga, Ontario, Canada
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Posted 19 May 2020 11:06 pm
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| John McClung wrote: |
| ... I blend palm blocking, pick blocking, fingertip blocking, left thumb blocking, left middle finger blocking behind the bar nose, right pinky under strings 1 and 2 blocking, anything that works, anything goes. |
I like this kind of thinking. You probably do this automatically without even thinking about what kind of blocking you're doing and spontaneously pick the blocking technique that does the job best.
I personally would hate having to sit and figure out in detail, before playing, what finger blocks what string...or do slow blocking rudiments with a metronome. To me, that sucks all the fun out of playing (But is probably also the reason I can't play as well as many who do practice this way!  )
I think if you just play as much as you can, you will just spontaneously develop good blocking technique that works for you.
I'm a palm blocker and recently discovered that I'm great at "pick blocking," but only without picks, so I'll call it "fingertip blocking." With the picks, I can't feel the strings and get that sizzling/clicking sound when I pick block; it just doesn't work for me.
Also, strangely, I discovered I can play more in tune
with other instruments if I don't use picks. For these reasons I have decided to stop using picks altogether and use fingertip-blocking, palm blocking, and the whatever-works blocking that John mentioned in the above quote. |
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Jerry Roller
From:
Van Buren, Arkansas USA
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Posted 21 May 2020 10:15 pm
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Right pinky finger tip or right ring finger tip. The tips of those fingers are discolored after playing three hours.
_________________
http://www.littleoprey.org/ |
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Douglas Schuch
From:
Valencia, Philippines
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Posted 22 May 2020 4:40 pm
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First off, those who say they combine palm and pick blocking - I am envious! Those who say it's easy to learn - apparently not for everyone. Paul F. says he struggled with palm blocking for years before finally being advised to forget and do what works for him. I am like him - 8 years of playing, with somewhat regular practice to attempt to learn palm blocking, and still 1 string always ends up ringing out - I just don't seem to be able to put the side of my hand on the strings in a manner that effectively blocks all of them.
I suspect about 1/2 of these answers above were given without really thinking about the question - for example, I don't see how you can use the side of your right thumb to block string 8 or 9 while nearly simultaneously picking string 10. The left thumb? Yes, that is possible.
So to tackle your question, with some thought to my particular methods - you give two situations - one very simple, one very hard. When playing strings 6,8,10 then playing 6,9,10 - blocking is very simple - the fingernail of your index finger, which is playing string 9, comes into contact with string 8 and blocks it. When "pick" blocking (that's a term, not an accurate description) you often play with your fingers a bit deeper in the strings than you might if palm blocking.
So, going the other way: playing 6, 9, 10, then 6, 8, 10: I would pick-block strings 6 and 10 because I just don't even thing about doing that - that's just how I play. But the problem is string 9 - and that I would palm block. I am not "palm-blocking" exactly because I am not trying to block all 3 strings (harder with even wider grips). I am using the very padded part of the side of my hand to block 9, and that is easy for me. It is strings close to the base of my little finger when I try to palm-block that don't get effectively blocked.
If, instead of string six, I wanted string 5 or 4 for the second chord (4, 8, 10). Now I have two strings that I can not block easily with my fingertips. Since it's chords, hopefully there is time for me to make my awkward palm block, then pick the next chord! If it is rapid chords in succession, then I'm in trouble! I will probably try to find another way to play that passage - alternate chord voicings, or alternate positions for the same notes.
Again, I am jealous of those of you who find palm blocking easy, and I would encourage anyone learning this instrument to try to learn both. Each has situations where they are superior, and situations where they have difficulties. Maybe in another 8 years of playing I will be able to brag about using both methods.
_________________
Bringing steel guitar to the bukid of Negros Oriental! |
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John Goux
From:
California, USA
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Posted 22 May 2020 10:24 pm
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Douglas, thanks for the very detailed and clear answer. It sounds like you do the same as Paul in one situation, and palm block the other.
John k |
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