Advice on universal E9/B6 copedent

Aris Xanthos · From: Switzerland

Hello,

I'm in the process of moving from D10 to U12 and this is the copedent I've come up with at this point for the new guitar:

What do you universal players and copedent gurus think about it?

I haven't been able to fit the G# to F# change somewhere (I'd like to have string 8 E to D on a lever, and I can't have more than 5 of them).

Thanks in advance for your feedback!

Aris

Ian Rae · From: Redditch, England

Rick Abbott · From: Indiana, USA

When I played U12 I really liked my 4 and 8 string raises and lowers on my right knee. E to Eb RKR and E to F on RKL. Learning to play the volume pedal while holding the RKR out was pretty easy to get used to, but shifting to the RKL, while not flooring the VP was an adjustment. I really didn't notice it after a few weeks. Also, I had my D, equivalent to the 9th string, on the LKL and raising the B to D, instead of lowering the E to D on the 8th. Matter of taste I guess, but it felt pretty natural to me. There are many ways to get this stuff done. I had 2 Carter U12 guitars and a ShoBud D10 with the E9 neck as a U10. I don't mind my E-raise on my RKL, though a lot of folks don't like them there.
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John Goux · From: California, USA

Why not put your Str 8 E to D on the RKR with the other lower to D. Makes sense, and leaves your LKR open to have 6 lower to F# or 7 raise to G#.:

I use the B to D raise and love it, but use it in pedals down and not to create E7. The choice between the different methods of getting Dâ€™s is, do you want strings 9 thru 6 to be DEF#A or BDF#A?
The different is a strummable D major or a pentatonic scale.

John

Aris Xanthos · From: Switzerland

Thanks for your answers!

Ian, ok that should have been qualified: the builder does not mention it anywhere (though he does mention the price of additional levers), I have only just discovered this possibility and I find it somewhat daunting, the budget is also an issue, and I'm already a bit overwhelmed with the size of the search space. So all in all I'd rather not go that way if I can avoid...

Rick, I currently have the E raises and lowers on LKL and LKR. I'm ready to move the lowers to the right knee, but I'd rather keep the raises where they are (to reduce the overall amount of retraining needed, and because I find it comfortable to use with pedal A)--though I foresee other issues with this choice, see my answer to John below. Concerning the lowers, I have made a few tests and my impression is that it would be less tiring for me to have RKL engaged for some time than RKR (as well as easier to control the VP).

John, since I'm more interested in the scale than the strummable chord, it could be something like this, right?

I like this, but it raises other questions:

K Maul · From: Hadley, NY/Hobe Sound, FL

It all looks good but Iâ€™d lower the low B to G#, too on Pedal 7.
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Aris Xanthos · From: Switzerland

K Maul · From: Hadley, NY/Hobe Sound, FL

I always used LKR for the Ebs but can see value in putting it on the RKL.
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K Maul · From: Hadley, NY/Hobe Sound, FL

Oops...wrong answer! I use the E-D change on RKR.
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b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

I wouldn't raise the 12th string B to C# on the first pedal. Using the major 3rd as the lowest note in a chord isn't a good voicing. If you really want 3 changes on that pedal, consider lowering string 12 to A. That's a very strong voicing. Or you could lower 12 to A on your "C" pedal - that's also very good.

Why are you not lowering 12 to G# on pedal 7? Most people do. Is that just an oversight on your chart?
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Ian Rae · From: Redditch, England

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

Aris Xanthos · From: Switzerland

This forum's the best place on the net! Thank you all for the time you give to this.

I've restored B to G# on string 12, which was meant to be there.

So if I followed well, we're now looking at this (modifications compared to 1st version emphasized):

I like that Smile

. Does someone think of something else that should be changed?

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

John Goux · From: California, USA

Looks good to me.
Are you sure you would rather have 6 lower to F#, than 7 raise to G and G#?
That G on 7 is nice for A7 chords and occasional counterpoint.

I known the half Franklin is cool, too. Itâ€™s a decision on which one you will use.
Only downside of the half Franklin, is when you are in pedals down, playing finger roll type stuff with a G on string 1, it makes string 6 (The root) go flat in you A7.
Many players have it either way, or both. (If they have a spot for it)
John

Aris Xanthos · From: Switzerland

Aris Xanthos · From: Switzerland

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

Aris Xanthos · From: Switzerland

Thanks b0b, I had no idea the B to A# lower mattered for B6! The possibility of having both changes makes me very happy Smile

John Goux · From: California, USA

Just yesterday I found a great chord using that string 7 raise to G.

E7#9. Good ones are rare in E9 so here is a cool fat one.
In Ext E9:
Strings 12, 11,9, 7 (raise to G)
From the bottom up you have E,G#,D,Gnat
In Uni, strings 11, 10, 9 raise to D(or lower 8, 7 raise to G

If you are splitting 6 to get that G, you will loose the low G#.

Iâ€™m not saying you should make the decision based on this one chord. I like the half Franklin too, and have both things on one guitar. Iâ€™m just saying, that string 7 raise surprises me every so often with a chord Iâ€™ve been missing. Much like the B to A#, itâ€™s not necessary to have it, but when you get deeper into the tuning itâ€™s great to have.

And listen to Bob. He has lots of experience at this stuff.
John

Aris Xanthos · From: Switzerland

Thank you John. I'm afraid I'll have to pass on this 7#9 -- can't have them all...

But I appreciate everyone's input in this thread! Here's the final revision:

I'll send pictures in about a year, when there's an actual guitar corresponding to that theory Wink

(this is going to be looong)

Ian Rae · From: Redditch, England

I haven't tried John's version of that chord but it will have a very special character on those low strings.

I prefer the traditional ones (uni string numbers)

7,5,4 with P5&6 (C6 5,3,2)
9,6,5 with A pedal and 9 raised to D (E9 9,6,5)
9,7,6 with P5&7 (C6 7,5,4)
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Aris Xanthos · From: Switzerland

J D Sauser · From: Wellington, Florida

I think you did SMART in moving the E-to-D drop to a knee lever. So you understand the connection of the "two" tunings and make it on. It also gives you access to to the B-pedal and A&B with that change engaged. The B-pedal is evidently a common added lever on C6th (A-to-Bb raise). Being able to add the A pedal pull with the D in the middle is an added benefit most C6th players wouldn't have (John Hughey raised his C-to-D with the A-to-Bb raise lever... kind'a "Isaacs" pedal in one).
It also brings your 5-pedal change next to the 7-pedal change... which eliminates double footing for that common combination.
I feel your RKR is a "waste", as it's not an "universal" change... meaning that it does little on the B6th side.
If you'd really prefer to keep it there, maybe because of habit out of your D10 past, I would at least pull the bottom 12th string from B-to-C# (C-to-D relative to a C6th) with it. You may find that the 5th-pedal-change already does that, but the chord get's altered with the other 2 pulls. Having a C# readily available is a game changer in my opinion. Maurice wound up having the bottom string tuned up to that 2nd degree on all his tunings and told me he would want to be without it. I must say, I would give up a pedal to keep that (I am NOT suggesting to you to give up a pedal!! HA! you have room for that change on RKL should you choose to keep it the way you posted it.

I have been playing U12 for a loooong time. I have kind'a retracted my interest from E9th and decided to concentrate on Jazz, Swing and Bebop. After fooling around lately on B6th-to-E9th, I decided to rather drop the E9th changes in favor of B6th specific changes. I am considering going to a D10 (something I would have bet against ever doing) because of some tuning temperament difficulties with getting all my B6th changes in tune and the E9th changes on the same neck too.

... J-D.
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Scott Spadafora · From: Washington, USA

Hi Aris,

Good to see you're still at it!

Having had my MSA universal for about 7 months now, here are my comments.

In my prior E9 life I had both E's on the right - E raises on RKL and E lowers on RKR. Having them on the same side makes the most sense to me as you donâ€™t ever need to use them together so you have more lever combinations available. I understand there are certain advantages (some smoother transitions and Iâ€™m sure some other goodies) to putting your Eâ€™s on either side. I decided to keep them on the right with my new steel but reverse them. I had read that the universal often requires lowering your Eâ€™s for long periods of time and Iâ€™d rather do that going left. As it turns out, the physical part of it is a non-issue as Iâ€™m frequently releasing my RKL. And if someday I start using my right foot on pedals Iâ€™d much rather have my right leg going left most often than right (I will be installing a P7 shortly, see below image).

As a side note I originally had your LKL ( E to C# on 11) and A pedal (B to A on 12) changes but decided that the extra exertion was inhibiting my playing. I had them removed but they could come back someday.

The one potential problem I see in your copedent, for me anyway, is that you have your E lowers and your 8th string lower to D on the same side. I am constantly switching between the two and would prefer the smoothness and timing (like when you split your Eâ€™s between sides) of having those changes on different legs.

After playing for a few months two things were clear: there are a good many jazz changes using A and/or B (and neighboring associated moves) and the â€˜B6â€™ pedals I use the most are your pedals 5 and 6. I was frequently going back and forth between A and/or B and P5 or P6 - thatâ€™s a long way (and you have the Franklin in between also). So I reversed my A and C pedals making the above moves much friendlier. It took a while to get used to but Iâ€™m about 95% there.

I have included my copedent below. There are splits on strings 5 and 6, a Franklin pedal on 0 (I donâ€™t use it but part of its function is on the 6th string whole tone lower (LL2, with B in the mix it sounds great)), P7 awaits! And yes, LV is really valuable.

Good Luck,

Scott

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