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Post new topic Advice on universal E9/B6 copedent
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Author Topic:  Advice on universal E9/B6 copedent
Aris Xanthos

 

From:
Switzerland
Post  Posted 10 May 2020 1:05 pm    
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Hello,

I'm in the process of moving from D10 to U12 and this is the copedent I've come up with at this point for the new guitar:



What do you universal players and copedent gurus think about it?

I haven't been able to fit the G# to F# change somewhere (I'd like to have string 8 E to D on a lever, and I can't have more than 5 of them).

Thanks in advance for your feedback!

Aris
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Ian Rae


From:
Redditch, England
Post  Posted 10 May 2020 2:35 pm     Re: Advice on universal E9/B6 copedent
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Aris Xanthos wrote:
I can't have more than 5 of them

Why not?
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Rick Abbott

 

From:
Indiana, USA
Post  Posted 10 May 2020 3:28 pm    
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When I played U12 I really liked my 4 and 8 string raises and lowers on my right knee. E to Eb RKR and E to F on RKL. Learning to play the volume pedal while holding the RKR out was pretty easy to get used to, but shifting to the RKL, while not flooring the VP was an adjustment. I really didn't notice it after a few weeks. Also, I had my D, equivalent to the 9th string, on the LKL and raising the B to D, instead of lowering the E to D on the 8th. Matter of taste I guess, but it felt pretty natural to me. There are many ways to get this stuff done. I had 2 Carter U12 guitars and a ShoBud D10 with the E9 neck as a U10. I don't mind my E-raise on my RKL, though a lot of folks don't like them there.
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John Goux

 

From:
California, USA
Post  Posted 10 May 2020 10:35 pm    
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Why not put your Str 8 E to D on the RKR with the other lower to D. Makes sense, and leaves your LKR open to have 6 lower to F# or 7 raise to G#.:

I use the B to D raise and love it, but use it in pedals down and not to create E7. The choice between the different methods of getting D’s is, do you want strings 9 thru 6 to be DEF#A or BDF#A?
The different is a strummable D major or a pentatonic scale.

John
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Aris Xanthos

 

From:
Switzerland
Post  Posted 11 May 2020 1:59 am    
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Thanks for your answers!

Ian, ok that should have been qualified: the builder does not mention it anywhere (though he does mention the price of additional levers), I have only just discovered this possibility and I find it somewhat daunting, the budget is also an issue, and I'm already a bit overwhelmed with the size of the search space. So all in all I'd rather not go that way if I can avoid...

Rick, I currently have the E raises and lowers on LKL and LKR. I'm ready to move the lowers to the right knee, but I'd rather keep the raises where they are (to reduce the overall amount of retraining needed, and because I find it comfortable to use with pedal A)--though I foresee other issues with this choice, see my answer to John below. Concerning the lowers, I have made a few tests and my impression is that it would be less tiring for me to have RKL engaged for some time than RKR (as well as easier to control the VP).

John, since I'm more interested in the scale than the strummable chord, it could be something like this, right?



I like this, but it raises other questions:
    - Wouldn't it be difficult to get a D simultaneously on strings 2 and 8, because of the half-stop? (but then maybe it can be done technically, or it isn't really a problem because they're not used together anyway?)
    - If the E to D lower is to be used at times when the E to Eb lower is not, could it be somewhat difficult to transition from one to the other, in particular from RKL to RKR (again, because of the half-stop)?
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K Maul


From:
Upstate NY/Hobe Sound FL
Post  Posted 11 May 2020 7:21 am    
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It all looks good but I’d lower the low B to G#, too on Pedal 7.
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Aris Xanthos

 

From:
Switzerland
Post  Posted 11 May 2020 7:32 am    
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K Maul wrote:
It all looks good but I’d lower the low B to G#, too on Pedal 7.


Ok course, thanks for noticing it! I don’t know where it has gone...

Just for reference, did you mean the first or second variant (E to D on RKR), or both?
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K Maul


From:
Upstate NY/Hobe Sound FL
Post  Posted 11 May 2020 7:49 am    
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I always used LKR for the Ebs but can see value in putting it on the RKL.
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K Maul


From:
Upstate NY/Hobe Sound FL
Post  Posted 11 May 2020 7:51 am    
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Oops...wrong answer! I use the E-D change on RKR.
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b0b


From:
Cloverdale, CA
Post  Posted 11 May 2020 8:25 am    
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I wouldn't raise the 12th string B to C# on the first pedal. Using the major 3rd as the lowest note in a chord isn't a good voicing. If you really want 3 changes on that pedal, consider lowering string 12 to A. That's a very strong voicing. Or you could lower 12 to A on your "C" pedal - that's also very good.

Why are you not lowering 12 to G# on pedal 7? Most people do. Is that just an oversight on your chart?
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Ian Rae


From:
Redditch, England
Post  Posted 11 May 2020 9:32 am    
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b0b wrote:
Consider lowering string 12 to A. That's a very strong voicing.

By the same token, lower 11 to C# on your LKL
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b0b


From:
Cloverdale, CA
Post  Posted 11 May 2020 9:48 am    
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b0b wrote:
Consider lowering string 12 to A. That's a very strong voicing.

Ian Rae wrote:
By the same token, lower 11 to C# on your LKL

True, that. I had that change on the F lever of my Extended E9th for 25 years. Very useful, as C# is the root of the chord when you use the F (aka E#) lever.
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Aris Xanthos

 

From:
Switzerland
Post  Posted 11 May 2020 1:01 pm    
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This forum's the best place on the net! Thank you all for the time you give to this.

I've restored B to G# on string 12, which was meant to be there.

So if I followed well, we're now looking at this (modifications compared to 1st version emphasized):



I like that Smile. Does someone think of something else that should be changed?
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b0b


From:
Cloverdale, CA
Post  Posted 11 May 2020 1:36 pm    
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Aris Xanthos wrote:
I like that Smile. Does someone think of something else that should be changed?

Looks very workable to me.
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John Goux

 

From:
California, USA
Post  Posted 15 May 2020 4:52 pm    
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Looks good to me.
Are you sure you would rather have 6 lower to F#, than 7 raise to G and G#?
That G on 7 is nice for A7 chords and occasional counterpoint.

I known the half Franklin is cool, too. It’s a decision on which one you will use.
Only downside of the half Franklin, is when you are in pedals down, playing finger roll type stuff with a G on string 1, it makes string 6 (The root) go flat in you A7.
Many players have it either way, or both. (If they have a spot for it)
John
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Aris Xanthos

 

From:
Switzerland
Post  Posted 15 May 2020 10:17 pm    
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John Goux wrote:
Looks good to me.
Are you sure you would rather have 6 lower to F#, than 7 raise to G and G#?
That G on 7 is nice for A7 chords and occasional counterpoint.

I known the half Franklin is cool, too. It’s a decision on which one you will use.
Only downside of the half Franklin, is when you are in pedals down, playing finger roll type stuff with a G on string 1, it makes string 6 (The root) go flat in you A7.
Many players have it either way, or both. (If they have a spot for it)
John


Hey John,

In fact I’m not sure... I have string 7 raise to G/G# on one D10, and to G on another, and I know I will miss this G, at least for harmonized licks on strings 1 and 2.

I don’t have the string 6 lower on either guitar, so was inclined to give it up, admittedly not knowing what I’d miss, but I’ve seen other discussions on the forum defending it so strongly that I ended up with the half Franklin.

Someone wrote on my previous thread that there were always concessions to be made with E9/B6. That seems very true! As a self-taught beginner, I find it hard to make these choices not knowing clearly the pros and cons and how you can or will have to make up for them...
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Aris Xanthos

 

From:
Switzerland
Post  Posted 18 May 2020 2:20 am    
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John Goux wrote:
Are you sure you would rather have 6 lower to F#, than 7 raise to G and G#?
That G on 7 is nice for A7 chords and occasional counterpoint.


Would it make sense, if I leave LKR without half-stop, to have the F# to G raise on LKV in place of the B to A# lower?
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b0b


From:
Cloverdale, CA
Post  Posted 18 May 2020 7:44 am    
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Aris Xanthos wrote:
Would it make sense, if I leave LKR without half-stop, to have the F# to G raise on LKV in place of the B to A# lower?

The B to A# lower is essential for C6th (B6th) chord construction. On the "E9th side" of the tuning, it's often used with pedals down to change the A major chord to A minor (a "tuneable split").

You can get that G note on the 6th string with a tuneable split (B+LKR). You don't really need it on the 7th string.

On a related issue, it might not be a bad idea to raise the 1st string F# to G on LKV. It wouldn't interfere with B to A#. I've never seen it done, but it makes sense. When ordering a new guitar, I always specify at least 2 changes for each pedal or lever because you never know when you might need that extra rod. Mr. Green
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Aris Xanthos

 

From:
Switzerland
Post  Posted 18 May 2020 11:05 am    
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Thanks b0b, I had no idea the B to A# lower mattered for B6! The possibility of having both changes makes me very happy Smile
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John Goux

 

From:
California, USA
Post  Posted 18 May 2020 10:01 pm    
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Just yesterday I found a great chord using that string 7 raise to G.

E7#9. Good ones are rare in E9 so here is a cool fat one.
In Ext E9:
Strings 12, 11,9, 7 (raise to G)
From the bottom up you have E,G#,D,Gnat
In Uni, strings 11, 10, 9 raise to D(or lower 8, 7 raise to G

If you are splitting 6 to get that G, you will loose the low G#.

I’m not saying you should make the decision based on this one chord. I like the half Franklin too, and have both things on one guitar. I’m just saying, that string 7 raise surprises me every so often with a chord I’ve been missing. Much like the B to A#, it’s not necessary to have it, but when you get deeper into the tuning it’s great to have.

And listen to Bob. He has lots of experience at this stuff.
John
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Aris Xanthos

 

From:
Switzerland
Post  Posted 18 May 2020 11:07 pm    
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Thank you John. I'm afraid I'll have to pass on this 7#9 -- can't have them all...

But I appreciate everyone's input in this thread! Here's the final revision:



I'll send pictures in about a year, when there's an actual guitar corresponding to that theory Wink (this is going to be looong)
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Ian Rae


From:
Redditch, England
Post  Posted 19 May 2020 12:30 am    
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I haven't tried John's version of that chord but it will have a very special character on those low strings.

I prefer the traditional ones (uni string numbers)

7,5,4 with P5&6 (C6 5,3,2)
9,6,5 with A pedal and 9 raised to D (E9 9,6,5)
9,7,6 with P5&7 (C6 7,5,4)
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