D10 to Universal Steel

Cody Coombs · From: Washington, USA

I was just pondering the thought of getting a universal , I understand there's a learning curve especially with the universal . My question is , how hard or complicated does it become to switch between the two style steels ( D10 and a universal )

What all really changes on the universal neck ? I get the 2 extra strings , but do the same grips still apply for E9 then switching over to the 6th side of it do you still keep the same grips as well ? And how about all the pedals so they still stay relatively similar too ? If I was to learn on both steels would it make everything harder ?

Here's a way I think it could make it harder , maybe just use more brain . I have a 8 string Dobro and a 6 string Dobro , both tuned to open G , but the 8 string is G6 . So to play the same tunes I would on the 6 on the 8 , I have to keep in mind to skip certain strings . So does that idea apply on the universal ?

I know there's multiple information on this , sometimes it's hard to find the right questions

Thank you ,

Cody Coombs

Fred Martin · From: Phoenix, Az

Once you start thinking that way you will probably have to get one and resolve it by spending some time trying it.
On the E9 thinking you will get right in, the lower strings working with A and B pedals are great.
There is more transition trying C6 with it being a B6, changes frets.
Seems to me at least on my Carter the strings are closer. I could not keep switching so put my E lowers back on LKL.
Itâ€™s harder to figure lesson material, especially C6.
Harder to sell one I think. They certainly have not caught on like old Jeff Newman predicted at one time!
Hope you get some good inside from these quarantined pickers !

Bob Hoffnar · From: Austin, Tx

What do you think switching to a U12 would help ?. I have used both and a D10 is vastly preferable to me. It depends on where you are at as a player and what you are looking to do though really.
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Ian Rae · From: Redditch, England

The strangest thing for you would be the lack of a 9th string D. I started on a D10 but switched to uni before I learnt to do much with that D string.

It's more important to have uninterrupted grips in B6 mode, as the E9 grips are a mixed bag already. You just have to get used to hitting 6,8,9 in place of 6,8,10

The seven or eight pedals are the same as on a D10, except they all work on the one neck.

I don't know what it's like switching between the two as I've never been back! For everyone like Bob who prefers the D10 there's someone like me who switches (virtual) necks a lot and prefers the lighter instrument. Actually the Bobs outnumber us considerably. I think. Poll?
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Greg Cutshaw · From: Corry, PA, USA

Another option would be an Excel single neck 12 string with a E9th/C6 changeover lock lever. Full E9th 10 string tuning including the D string and full C6 tuning, no changes in grips of fret position for either tuning. As a bonus you get two extra strings on each tuning and a super light and compact guitar. Guitar and the case combined total weight is a minimal 37.9 pounds.

http://www.gregcutshaw.com/Excel%2012%20String%20Keyless/Excel%2012%20String%20Keyless.html

All in one neck and NO compromises!

Cody Coombs · From: Washington, USA

I think what's interested me could have to do with being stuck in my house getting the itch for something new and I've been watching a lot of Cowboy Eddie Long playing one , it also seems fun having it all right there on the same neck . Right now I have a Mullen royal precision D10 and have no complaints for it , I'm absolutely loving it. I'm still in the early stage of learning the Steel so I'm not needing to throw too many changes at myself , but the thought of a universal just seems like it would be a fun thing , as long as it wouldn't overwhelm me with much differences .

Greg - the e9/c6 12 string sounds really neat , how different is that to a universal ?

These are all great things for me to consider if I went down that road

Ian Rae · From: Redditch, England

Cody, obviously I don't know you but I recognise your thinking. I was fascinated by the universal concept and just had to try it. At the time, I couldn't afford to buy one but I was so determined I built one! I've never looked back. Of course, to get two necks into one requires some compromises. If you have a lot of fancy changes on your D10 you won't be able to take them all with you, but I have all the basic ones. Being able to wander between the two tunings suits the music I play, and I've got to the age where lightness matters. There's nothing wrong with me physically but I intend to keep it that way!
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Ron Hogan · From: Nashville, TN, usa

You might want to check out Johnny Cox is now turning. It looks to be the best of both worlds and as what I would do.

https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=354360&highlight=

https://youtu.be/O50XMV0Wbyk

K Maul · From: Hadley, NY/Hobe Sound, FL

The same grips donâ€™t all apply on Universal because there is no D string. Personally that was never a problem for me but maybe Iâ€™m not that â€œadvancedâ€. In E9 mode there is one less dissonant note to worry about and you have a knee lever which gives you that note, just like pedal 6 on C6. I like it and I like the lower notes I can work with if thinking E9. Johnny Coxâ€™s D13 is a very cool idea, though, and I would pursue that if just starting out.
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Ian Rae · From: Redditch, England

Me too, Kevin. I'm too heavily invested in B6/E9 now, but I would definitely have tried it a few years back.
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John De Maille · From: On a Mountain in Upstate Halcottsville, N.Y.

I've been playing a U-12 for 16 years now and I love it. It's tuned to Newman's E9/B6 tuning. I switched from an S-11 (basically E9th with octave low E) to U-12 because I'm not comfortable playing a D-10. I played a lot of swing music on my S-11, but, of course didn't have the lower strings to use. The U-12 is very versatile having both turnings on one neck. Actually for me, I use it as one tuning utilizing both modes without changing necks.
And, as for instruction you can use most C6 tutorials, but, you have to remember that you're tuned to B instead of C.

Ian Rae · From: Redditch, England

I started out on a D10 because that's what was available at the time, but I soon got interested in the uni concept. With that in mind I tuned the rear neck to B and learned to read C6 tab that way.

Then when I made the switch I already had the geography. Cody, you might like to try that to get the feel of it. No need to change string gauges.
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Michael Johnstone · From: Sylmar,Ca. USA

I spent a good many years on the bandstand playing a loaded D10 but was always fascinated by the idea and the logic of an E9/B6 U12. I watched Jeff Newman and a few others tear it up many times so I knew the concept had wings. I sat down to one a couple times in stores and at the St. Louis convention but knew a few minutes on strange instruments with different knee lever placement in a noisy room was not gonna tell me much. One day Greg Leisz called me up and asked me to come over and check out his new Sierra U12 so I did. He said he was about to leave on a road tour and that I should take it home and play it for a few weeks and report back to him on what I thought of it. This was my golden opportunity to try the U12 concept out for my self at length so I dug in and wood shedded for about 2 weeks before taking it out to my western swing gig. I took right to it and never looked back. I finally got my own Sierra w/8+8 and now have an Excel w/8+9.

One thing I realized was that if I'd have switched way back in the 80s when I first entertained the idea, I wouldn't have accumulated all those years on E9 and C6 as separate necks w/separate levers and pedals. That knowledge allowed me to see deeply into how the two tunings, their pedals and levers are integrated into the U12. I could also identify the connective tissue and grey areas that don't exist on either neck by itself. Some E9 players that get a U12 sometimes just play it more as an extended E9 and don't get into the 6th stuff as such because they don't have it in their back pocket to bring to the party.

So in my view, the best candidates to make the switch are guys who are at least fairly accomplished on E9 and C6 already. But those are the same guys who are loath to make the switch because they fear a period where they're gonna be lame for a while or that the U12 is gonna be some kind of split-the-difference compromise and they're gonna lose more than they gain. For me it was a great move, especially going to a keyless S12 w/no pad that folds down into what looks like a tenor sax case. BTW I have an E-lock and use it when I play things I learned on C6 that are very C6 specific and leave it unlocked as one big tuning the rest of the time.

Ian Rae · From: Redditch, England

The Excel uni is a miracle of miniaturisation!

Unlike Michael, I was still a novice when I made the switch. But I had studied both necks equally and took to the universal right away. I have all the changes I shall ever need, equivalent to 3x5 E9 and 5x4 C6
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Thomas Sabatini · From: Ohio, USA

Dennis Detweiler · From: Solon, Iowa, US

I played D-10 for 8 years, then switched to U-12. Our band at that time was playing a mixture of song styles and I got lazy and started finding 6th voicings on E9th. I bought a U-12 and initiated it to the jobs after playing it at home for 2 weeks. I like it because it allows me to work both tunings during one song or one measure if I prefer. Also, the capability of unstandard licks.
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Bobby D. Jones · From: West Virginia, USA

If you use the Jeff Newman copendent for 12 string universal tuning, The LKL knee lever is used to raise the 9th string B to D note for a fuller E9th.

Mike Vallandigham · From: Martinez, CA

Of course I agree with Greg. Smile

Ian Rae · From: Redditch, England

It's a miracle of engineering if you want to keep your C6 and E9 lives separate. I prefer the B6/E9, where it's quicker to change your mind and if you asked me which neck I thought I was on I wouldn't always be able to say Smile

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Jerry Overstreet · From: Louisville Ky

Good overview in Michael Johnstone's reply. Comprehensive analysis.

I'll have to say after about 10 yrs. of D10, I finally acquired a Universal 12, well actually it was a 14, but still the same setup. I played it for about 5 yrs. and then I ran across a D10 Lamar that I fell for, so started back on D10. However, at several times I owned and played both D10 and Universal 12s and 14s as recent as 5 yrs. ago.

Not everyone is as flippant as I am in changing back and forth of course.

I don't think there is any reason that you can't play everything you want to on the Universal tuning. It's just a matter of coming at things from a different direction sometimes and actually you can have more in the big tuning.

I think players, including myself, find some things uncomfortable when we change but that doesn't mean we can't adapt. We just have to look at things with a little bit different slant at times.

Just look at all the stuff that can be done on a 6,8 string fixed tuned steel and what all the masters can accomplish with a standard tuned 6 string
Spanish guitar.

Greg Cutshaw · From: Corry, PA, USA

It does a lot more than just keep the two necks separate. It adds two more strings on each tuning. The two bottom strings added to E9 give it a lot more range and rhythm possibilities. The two extra strings on C6 enable tremendous chordal and chromatic possibilities not possible before. It also gives you many more knee lever changes as the two right knee levers switch functions between tunings.

In either case we are much more limited by our abilities than we are by our choice of tunings!

Ian Rae · From: Redditch, England

Greg, I don't in any way mean to belittle Mitsuo Fujii's vision of creating what is effectively a D12 in miniature form. But I learnt B6 right from the outset so C6 isn't home to me like it is to others.

This is a good opportunity to acknowledge how much you put in to this forum, even when we don't have extra time on our hands!
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Greg Cutshaw · From: Corry, PA, USA

No problem Ian! This is just a forum and all discussion and opinions contribute. I donâ€™t take myself that seriously. It would be great if we could set up a room where people could try a universal 12 and my Excel guitar on their own maybe even in private. I have noticed at the bottom two strings can create a lot of noise as you drag the bar or your hands over them due to the fact that they are wound. Itâ€™s probably more of a factor on the E ninth tuning but I play with a 10 string bar and that helps a bit. Havenâ€™t found a need for a 12 string bar yet. In fact when playing in E ninth mode keeping the bar in the top 10 strings helps me to focus on the top 10 strings and not pay attention to the bottom two when they are not needed.

Ian Rae · From: Redditch, England

It's interesting that you mention the 12-string bar. I've never quite seen the point on the B6 uni, which is really just two overlapping 10-stringers. I never strum more than eight strings. I suppose on an extended E9 it might be useful.

Bobby mentions the 9th string raise to D. In combination with the A pedal it gives the equivalent to the E9 D to C# lower, albeit the other way round. I also lower 8 to D, which is necessary as the B6 pedal 6 but is also useful in E9 if you want to go major, major 7th, 7th.
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Tucker Jackson · From: Portland, Oregon, USA

Cody, if you're going to try it... do it soon!

I really wanted to be a 12-U player, but screwed up and waited until I was three years in to try to make the switch.

For me, that turned out to be too late; I was already so comfortable on 10 that I could never really make the jump to 12. Gave it up after a couple of years. I often wonder if I had started sooner if I could have made peace with it.

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