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Topic: Creating an instrumental break based on the melody |
Curt Trisko
From:
St. Paul, Minnesota, USA
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Posted 10 Mar 2020 9:41 am |
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| I think we're bringing this into focus now. Compared to BE's playing in the link, I'm much more of a 'strings section' in this song. Maybe the way to rephrase my question is how to compose the melody while implying the 'strings section'? |
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Curt Trisko
From:
St. Paul, Minnesota, USA
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Posted 11 Mar 2020 7:15 am Re: Time
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| Jeff Peterson wrote: |
You seem to be lucky in that you have some time to work on it. In the studios in Texas, 70's, they were great...'ok guys, let's give the steel player some time to work out a solo....Jeff, you got 10 minutes.
I think to figure out what you're gonna do, just start playing the melody, take some time and something will click and you'll be there. |
I'm very lucky. It makes it feel like a joy instead of a job. When I listen to those old recordings, and especially the ones with the big names, it's sad when you hear such talent go unused because either they just have to throw something together that's passable or they were not involved enough in the process to be deliberate about a vision for the song.
Also, I listened to that Judy Collins song again and I think BE's 'strings' behind the first verse and other parts of the song are not so different than what I'm playing. That said, to me his parts support the song without giving it a dimension above and beyond sounding like a 70s soft country song. That's just my perspective from not having the context to get anything greater out of it. Taking the steel out of the song wouldn't make it a different song to me. The melody and her vocals make the song and don't require any boosting. I think my steel playing adds dimension to the mood of the song I'm working on to the point where cutting it off in order to focus exclusively on the melody will feel like an abrupt change. |
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Adam Tracksler
From:
Maine, USA
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Posted 11 Mar 2020 8:32 am
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| You might want to think about it like a chord melody. I get a lot of mileage on this with mandolin and guitar, just the melody note and one or two harmony notes. This is pretty common in non-pedal so I think it would transfer over pretty easily. |
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Kevin Fix
From:
Michigan, USA
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Posted 11 Mar 2020 5:34 pm
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| Lloyd Green comes to mind on this topic. He is the master of melody playing. I have great respect for his playing... |
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Benjamin Franz
From:
Melbourne, Victoria, Australia
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Posted 11 Mar 2020 5:39 pm
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| Remember notes are only half the melody. The other half is the rhythm of the melody. Soloing off the rhythm of the melody without actually playing the melody notes is a very effective soloing device. |
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Bill Duncan
From:
Lenoir, North Carolina, USA
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Posted 13 Mar 2020 3:24 pm
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I took the advice Paul Franklin gave about learning music theory, so I bought a book. In the first chapter, I learned that what we have been chasing is not tone. It is timbre, not tone. No wonder it is so hard to catch.
The book I bought is, Music Theory, From Absolute Beginner To Expert, by, Nicolas Carter.
_________________
You can observe a lot just by looking |
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Larry Dering
From:
Missouri, USA
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Posted 13 Mar 2020 3:39 pm
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| Bill, once you get it complete, please dumb it down then explain it to me. I know just enough to make mistakes like a pro. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 13 Mar 2020 4:22 pm
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| Curt Trisko wrote: |
Oh come on.  I asked a question and the answers took it in a different direction and left me with a big part of my original question unanswered. |
I'll be honest; there's absolutely no way that I could answer you. Unless I hear or know the song, I wouldn't have the faintest idea about telling you how or what you should be playing. And even if I did, I wouldn't know what you feel, what you (or the singer) like, and what you are capable of doing/playing.
| Quote: |
| The thing that's causing me to have to rise to the occasion is that he wants the solo to be based on the melody. |
About 98% of all songs do that, don't they? |
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Curt Trisko
From:
St. Paul, Minnesota, USA
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Posted 13 Mar 2020 4:57 pm
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| I understand that I did not word my question well. What I'm asking is if there is metholody behind composing an instrumental break where you are simultaneously playing the melody while implying the 'strings' section and hooks that you were playing previously. |
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Curt Trisko
From:
St. Paul, Minnesota, USA
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Posted 14 Mar 2020 1:24 pm
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| How about if I only focus on the melody, but then ask him to use his voice to fill my parts... whether by humming or some other kind of vocalization? Has anyone had success with that? |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 14 Mar 2020 4:44 pm
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No, don’t do that. Not at first anyway. Get your solo act together, then see if it needs a hummer.
One thing you can try is to treat every note of the melody as Point A and every next note in it as Point B. If there is a way to get from A to B other than going in a straight line, try it. Maybe there is enough time space to throw in a little eighth note diatonic scale run from A to B. Or just a quick double-stop grab of two other notes in the chord to dress up the melody note. Or play the full chord as an arpeggiated run with the melody on top.
The other thing is, are we talking about a Wichita Lineman type of melody, like Marc said, or are we talking about Mary Had A Little Lamb? The former doesn’t need anything else, the latter...well, let’s just say it takes a village 🤠|
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Curt Trisko
From:
St. Paul, Minnesota, USA
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Posted 14 Mar 2020 4:52 pm
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| Fred Treece wrote: |
No, don’t do that. Not at first anyway. Get your solo act together, then see if it needs a hummer.
One thing you can try is to treat every note of the melody as Point A and every next note in it as Point B. If there is a way to get from A to B other than going in a straight line, try it. Maybe there is enough time space to throw in a little eighth note diatonic scale run from A to B. Or just a quick double-stop grab of two other notes in the chord to dress up the melody note. Or play the full chord as an arpeggiated run with the melody on top.
The other thing is, are we talking about a Wichita Lineman type of melody, like Marc said, or are we talking about Mary Had A Little Lamb? The former doesn’t need anything else, the latter...well, let’s just say it takes a village 🤠|
It's more "Mary Had A Little Lamb". 90% of it is within the 2nd and 4th notes of the key. It's a good melody, but his vocal style is to be understated and stay within a limited range. |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 14 Mar 2020 7:27 pm
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| Okay, in that case...In the short term, I suggest reviewing what Ian R. & Tony P. said in those first two responses. Therein lies much wisdom. In the long term, grok Mr. Franklin’s advice. |
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Curt Trisko
From:
St. Paul, Minnesota, USA
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Posted 15 Mar 2020 1:19 pm
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We just got done practicing and woodshopping. You all were correct who said that the novelty of the steel guitar is enough by itself to make it so that people won't care if the backing parts are absent while playing the melody. That's what the other guy in the project said... and it's his song so I can't disagree. Definitely turns the song into more of ballad.
That means doing the usual: prettying up the melody with some interesting phrasing, tasty diads, and throwing in the occasional arpeggio of the backing chord.
For those who want to hear it, I recorded a rough take on my smartphone of me playing the backing parts and then taking a stab at playing the plain melody. I recorded another song that we have more complete as well. Shoot me a message and I can send you the Soundcloud links. |
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Bobby D. Jones
From:
West Virginia, USA
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Posted 16 Mar 2020 8:35 pm
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When I work on a piece of music there is 2 statements I like to set and go over in my mind.
Jimmy Crawford's statement. " It is important to know how to play, But more important to know when to play".
And Jimmy Day's statement when he was asked about playing a steel guitar. "Hook your heart to the bar and your soul to the pedals".
On You-Tube if you listen to Judy Collins sing Some Day Soon. Mr. Emmons steel guitar gives the music Soul, Emotion and Feeling. There is other versions of her and that song with guitar and piano on You-Tube, They do not have the feeling as the original.
Curt I think this may be what you was searching for. The drums, bass and rhythm guitar lay down the grove, As a road map for You and the Steel Guitar to add the Soul, Emotion and feeling that makes the song come to life and make you feel it somewhere deep within.
Good Luck on this adventure and Happy Steelin. |
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Bobby D. Jones
From:
West Virginia, USA
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Posted 18 Mar 2020 9:44 pm
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| Just a guitar should be enough to lay the grove. The guitar will have to be exact with no lead, Just a smooth Rhythm, A string walk to the next chord if it fits in with the steel. |
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Jim Pitman
From:
Waterbury Ctr. VT 05677 USA
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Posted 22 Mar 2020 3:33 pm
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I feel your frustration. I play steel in duos on occasion.
I find Dave Hopings reference to Someday Soon a great example of what PSG plays to enhance a performance and give it soul. One thing that stands out for me is that BE anticipates a cord change and lets the listener in on it. But he's free to play that because he has a solid rhythm section. (which is compromised in a duo). Listen to those twos and fours played by Jim Gordon (my favorite drummer of all time) - slightly delayed perhaps but pronounced. This is what great country music rhythm is all about and I'm not sure you can catch that feel without that.
Sounds like you care enough that you will deliver something worth while. |
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Curt Trisko
From:
St. Paul, Minnesota, USA
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Posted 22 Mar 2020 7:55 pm
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I'm pretty close to having it finished now. The songwriter had an entirely different vision for the role of the solo in the song - and I think he is right. When I created this thread, I was focused on not disturbing the flow of the song by suddenly removing the steel guitar backing part and using it to replace the vocals.
It turns out the songwriter wants the effect that is created by doing just that... and doing it slowly and with mostly single notes. It takes the song down from the atmosphere and makes it more intimate and accessible. A similar kind of solo that you've all probably heard is Willie's from "Always on Mind". It's super effective in that song.
Doing it this way is a good back-to-the-basics exercise for me in phrasing and not overplaying. I'm a big fan of Willie, so even in playing single notes I think I need to be careful not to be bold with my phrasing that I make it inaccessible to most listeners. |
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