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Topic: Pedal Steel Without Pedals (or Steel) |
Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 17 Feb 2020 7:31 pm |
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| As a result of my collaborating with two prominent pedal steel players, here is my latest revision: |
The first tip those two prominent pedal steel players should have offered you is that Sleepwalk is a classic non-pedal steel guitar tune. The octave harmonic bits were not bad, actually.
Try on a classic psg solo, like Together Again or Farewell Party. Until your creation can do some of the things being done in tunes like that, calling it a pedal steel emulator is kind of a mischaracterization. |
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Gary Pogoda
From:
Atlantic City, NJ
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Posted 18 Feb 2020 6:07 am
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Fred, funny you should mention about Sleep Walk being a classic non-pedal (i.e., lap) steel guitar song. Actually, that was EXACTLY the first thing they both mentioned, and mentioned, and mentioned ...
Despite this criticism, I figured, if using a pedal steel was good enough for the Ventures ( https://youtu.be/5Jkhs_1FBcE ), it was good enough for me. However, it was not until I padded the song with some custom pedal steel slurs (i.e., where the pedals are used to resolve a chord), that they stopped mentioning this.
For example, if you listen closely after the first harmonic riff near the beginning of the song, you will hear:
1. ADG (D/A sus4) resolves to ADF (D/A min) by lowering the G to an F with the pedals.
2. BDG (G/B maj) resolves to BEG (E/B min) by raising the D to an E with the pedals.
A few similar such pedal steel slurs were added throughout the song.
Also, thanks for mentioning that you liked the harmonic riffs. You have no idea of the work that went into getting those to sound just right.
_________________
GARY
Casio CTK-6200
Casio PX-5S |
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Jacek Jakubek
From:
Mississauga, Ontario, Canada
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Posted 18 Feb 2020 7:49 am
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| Your clip reminds me of video game music. While listening to it, I imagined myself as Super Mario running really fast and stomping on mushrooms. Maybe you could get some video game makers to use this. |
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Gary Pogoda
From:
Atlantic City, NJ
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Posted 18 Feb 2020 8:46 am
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Jacek, you certainly have a vivid imagination.
BION, that was also a comment I received from my pedal steel guitar collaborators. Not as specific as your stomping mushrooms, just that it was still in the toy stage, and would not put any pedal steel guitarists out of a job.
But that is okay, because I am not looking to put any pedal steel guitarists out of a job. I am looking to enhance the job opportunities for six-string guitarists. Let me explain.
If you look closely at the video, you will notice that the left hand is ‘fretting’ guitar barre chords, and the right hand is ‘plucking’ fretted guitar strings, just like on a six-string guitar. This makes playing as simple as it could possibly be, while still providing the functionality of a pedal steel guitar.
Maybe someday the sound will be comparable to the real thing, but for now, in order for my app to be compatible with ‘all’ MIDI keyboard, I am constrained to using the sound patches of the General MIDI 1 (GM1) sound set, which has NO pedal steel patches.
_________________
GARY
Casio CTK-6200
Casio PX-5S |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 18 Feb 2020 9:04 am
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| Gary Pogoda wrote: |
Despite this criticism, I figured, if using a pedal steel was good enough for the Ventures ( https://youtu.be/5Jkhs_1FBcE ), it was good enough for me. However, it was not until I padded the song with some custom pedal steel slurs (i.e., where the pedals are used to resolve a chord), that they stopped mentioning this.
For example, if you listen closely after the first harmonic riff near the beginning of the song, you will hear:
1. ADG (D/A sus4) resolves to ADF (D/A min) by lowering the G to an F with the pedals.
2. BDG (G/B maj) resolves to BEG (E/B min) by raising the D to an E with the pedals. |
Gary, I was not trying to be a jerk with my comment, but it sure looks like I came off that way. My apologies. I put on a better pair of head phones, listened again, and heard those licks you mentioned. Good job! If I could offer one obvious suggestion that you’ve probably already thought of, it would be to find a musician with both keyboard and pedal steel skills to do one of your demos on a pro-level keyboard.
Tough crowd here. Your tenacity is commendable. |
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Gary Pogoda
From:
Atlantic City, NJ
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Posted 18 Feb 2020 9:57 am
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Thank you, Fred, for those kind words.
Regarding your suggestion of finding a combination keyboard/pedal steel player to do a demo, great minds think alike. I realized way back that my video needed the flair (for lack of a better word) of a pedal steel player; however, until recently, the sound was not good enough to warrant that type of involvement from a pedal steel player. At least now, I may have a shot.
_________________
GARY
Casio CTK-6200
Casio PX-5S |
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Andy Henriksen
From:
Michigan, USA
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Posted 18 Feb 2020 1:08 pm
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| Gary Pogoda wrote: |
1. ADG (D/A sus4) resolves to ADF (D/A min) by lowering the G to an F with the pedals.
2. BDG (G/B maj) resolves to BEG (E/B min) by raising the D to an E with the pedals. |
Regardless of the overall concept, I was hoping you could explain your chord notation here. Why are all these triads listed as slash chords? The 1st chord appears to be either an Asus2 or Dsus4, but not a D or an Asus4. The second (ADF) is a straight Dm, right? Not an Am at all? Anyway, I'm clearly missing something, and was just curious.
Thanks! |
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Gary Pogoda
From:
Atlantic City, NJ
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Posted 18 Feb 2020 1:54 pm
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Be happy to explain, Andy. Glad you asked.
The slash is used in standard music notation for chords.
D/A sus4 is the second inversion of a D sus4 chord, i.e., D sus4 played starting with the A.
D/A min is the second inversion of a D min chord, i.e., D min played starting with the A.
Hope that clears things up.
_________________
GARY
Casio CTK-6200
Casio PX-5S |
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Andy Henriksen
From:
Michigan, USA
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Posted 18 Feb 2020 2:05 pm
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| Gary Pogoda wrote: |
Be happy to explain, Andy. Glad you asked.
The slash is used in standard ‘piano’ notation for chords.
D/A sus4 is the second inversion of a D sus4 chord, i.e., D sus4 played starting with the A.
D/A min is the second inversion of a D min chord, i.e., D min played starting with the A.
Hope that clears things up. |
Aren't those typically written with the full chord name first followed by the slash-bass note to indicate the inversion? So, Dsus4/A, and Dm/A? That's why I was confused.
Either way, your explanation helps, so thanks! Good luck with your project! |
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Gary Pogoda
From:
Atlantic City, NJ
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Posted 18 Feb 2020 2:18 pm
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Here I am explaining music notation to you, and you probably know 10x more than I do. 
Of course you are correct. Sorry for the confusion.
_________________
GARY
Casio CTK-6200
Casio PX-5S |
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Andy DePaule
From:
Saigon, Viet Nam & Springfield, Oregon
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Posted 1 Mar 2020 9:39 pm Better but....
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Hi Gary,
Thanks for the PM.
Your revised video is better, but still not really the same as a steel guitar.
I commend you for your efforts and the result. You have gotten a lot of the effects, but not quite the same tonality.
Wish I could find a way to express better what I'm trying to say.
Maybe if a band had no steel player that would be better than nothing.
I still think the sound of an actual steel by a player with talent, taste and technique is just plain different and better.
Good luck in your endeavor.
Andy 
_________________
Inlaid Star Guitar 2006 by Mark Giles. SD-10 4+5 in E9th; http://luthiersupply.com/instrument-gallery.html
2017 Mullen SD-10, G2 5&5 Polished Aluminum covering. Custom Build for me. Great Steel.
Clinesmith Joaquin Murphy style Aluminum 8 String Lap Steel Short A6th.
Magnatone Jeweltone Series Lap Steel, Circa 1950? 6 String with F#minor7th Tuning.
1956 Dewey Kendrick D-8 4&3, Restoration Project.
1973 Sho~Bud Green SD-10 4&5 PSG, Restoration Project. |
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Gary Pogoda
From:
Atlantic City, NJ
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Posted 2 Mar 2020 2:20 am
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Andy, thank you for your feedback. I realize that my tonality is not quite there yet, for several reasons.
1. Use of the General MIDI 1 (GM1) sound set, which has NO Pedal Steel patches, so I must modify the Electric Guitar patch in real time using MIDI by adjusting its attack, release, sustain, and timbre. I do this, as opposed to using a custom Pedal Steel patch, so that my invention is compatible with as many MIDI keyboards as possible. While this is a self-imposed constraint, I have also made it very easy for a user to substitute a Pedal Steel patch, should their particular keyboard provide one (as many of the higher-end keyboards do).
2. Equal temperament vs. just intonation tuning. Due to the nature of MIDI keyboards, I am forced to use equal-tempered tuning. HOWEVER, as a result of some of the feedback I have received from pedal steel players, and after reading some of the discussions on this very forum, I now realize that I can ADJUST MY TONE CENTER on a per-chord basis to compensate for any equal-tempered dissonances, something that can be implemented on any MIDI keyboard fairly easily.
3. Linear vs. non-linear slides. For simplicity, I have used linear pitch shifting for my slides; however, based on feedback I have received, I do intend to develop a non-linear algorithm for this. (If anyone has any suggestions as what that algorithm might be, I would welcome your input.)
Thank you again, Andy, for recognizing the improvements and pointing out the shortcomings. Hopefully, my next iteration will be even better.
_________________
GARY
Casio CTK-6200
Casio PX-5S |
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Bengt Erlandsen
From:
Brekstad, NORWAY
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Posted 5 Mar 2020 11:40 am
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Ive tried doing some steel parts with keyboards and it is not an easy task at all. Doing Sleepwalk convincingly is even tougher as there is so many nuances that one needs to figure a solution to how am I gonna make this sound right.
Things I discovered while trying to emulate steel-parts was....stay away from voicings with more than 2 notes because it complicates things a lot.
The keyboard should have settings for trigger and re-trigger of the attack so you can play legato if you want to. Requires practise to make it work as one wants to.
You gonna maybe want to implement velocity sense for attack and at least aftertouch for vibrato plus even maybe use a volume pedal.
If keyboard allows for separate pitch bend of top voice(if theres 2 voices present) then you are able do some fancy trickery in addition to overall pitchbend.
It also requires some technique to continue melodyline even if one has introduced a pitchbend up or down to make things sound correct.
A good knowledge of typical pedal-steel riffs makes it easier to filter what is gonna work and what needs to be avoided.
If used to fill in parts here and there one might be able cover some parts convincingly. If it is a whole verse that need be duplicated then there is gonna be trouble for sure.
Make the simple riffs sound convincingly first before moving on to more difficult things 
Best of luck with programming and finding solutions.
Im gonna fake my steel-string parts on regular guitar if I have to. Too much work with keyboards and Im a guitar player after all.
B.Erlandsen |
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Gary Pogoda
From:
Atlantic City, NJ
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Posted 5 Mar 2020 2:03 pm
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B, I don’t know how to tell you this, but you are just the person I have been looking for.
What I really need, even more than the great tips you gave me, is a guitar player that knows his way around keyboards, and has a love for pedal steel.
As a guitarist, you will be right at home with this invention. Even though it has the full functionality of a pedal steel guitar, it is played just like a six-string. If you know barre chords, which I am sure do, you will be able to start playing immediately, guaranteed.
Is there any possibility you would hopefully be willing to try this out? If so, I will message you a link for downloading a beta version of my “Keyborg Pro†app. I would love to see what your professional take would be.
Thank you for your kind interest in this new invention.
_________________
GARY
Casio CTK-6200
Casio PX-5S |
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