Beginner Buying Advice

Duncan Wood · From: Santa Barbara, CA, USA

Hi all - first post here. I'm sure this has been asked before, but after doing some searching through the forum I couldn't find a good answer.

Wondering if there's a pedal steel buyer's guide for know-nothings like me. If so I'm happy to read something generic - but I haven't found anything. I'll specify my goals a bit in case someone is generous enough to point me in a particular direction:

I'm a guitarist, and most people who assess my guitar style put it in the 'jazz' category. I do play in that idiom sometimes, but the music I play is mostly toward singer/songwriter, folk, pop and country. In the past couple years I've started dipping into classic country (and bluegrass) a lot more, especially the sound of steel guitar. Long story short, I'm hoping to get an instrument that's robust enough to play and compose genre-agnostic music, mostly in the studio, but also potentially solo and with a small combo. Of course I'd like to have a chance to hang on with western swing, country and even jazz groups but I'm guessing most guitars will have that capability to an extent.

- If you were to start over without any bias toward a particular playing style, what would you buy?
- What are the benefits of two necks, considering portability is a factor? And assuming I don't much about the 'standard' uses and will be starting from scratch?
- Do I need a bunch of pedals? I thought I did until I tried a D8 with no pedals/levers, and found I could do a lot more than expected. But I don't want to be limited in voicing options.

I'm a student and don't have infinite funds or infinite living space, so those are considerations. I'd like to buy something I have a chance of using forever. Any advice, perspective, or leads are appreciated!

- Duncan

Bob Hoffnar · From: Austin, Tx

Duncan Wood

Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

#1 , welcome and good luck on your Journey !

#2- The Instrument doesn't know or care what style you play

#3- These instruments can get expensive in a hurry, don't acquire an Instrument that you will own forever, meaning, you can't sell it at some point should you want to upgrade.

#4- The standard 10 string tunings are already defined and have been for decades now. E9th with 3 peds and perhaps 4 levers, C6th with 5 peds and 2 or 3 levers. Don't reinvent the wheel. Grow into the wheel.

#5 - the benefit of a D10 is personal. Two totally different voicings but that doesn't mean you can't play similar styles of voicings on either. Two different tunings , the PED and Lever voicings are built around each tuning. One is a Chromatic 9th the other is built around the 6th. As a Jazz player you probably already know what the different voicings sound like. The Peds and levers allow for "in family" chord voicings for each tuning and sit right in front of you.

#6- the immediate benefit of a S10 is less weight. The immediate downside is the lack of the 2nd "6th" tuning. The 6th tuning can do a ton with NO pedals, but the addition of a few pedals makes life grand ! Kinda like extra fingers on your left hand as a guitar player.

#7-the final thought. Many will say you don't need a D10 and they may be right, but they are not YOU. It really depends on how YOU want to approach music. Don't spend a ton of money on a limited Instrument which can't be upgraded or improved. The 10 string tuning evolved because it ADDED to the original 6 and 8 string tunings, a natural evolution.

Good luck

Very Happy

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Gene Tani · From: Pac NW

I started looking for a PSG after playing c6 lap steel awhile and started looking at D10's for sale. If you put enough constraints on it, not too expensive, not too heavy, plays well, easy to change copedent, reasonably priced parts available etc, you're probably going to get frustrated, especially once you're aware shipping a steel anywhere for setup/rerod/repair could be a budget buster

https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=352928

A lot of people that started last 10 or so years, including me, started on a Zum Stage One, 3 pedals, 4 knees and I will go sofar as to say almost nothing can go wrong on those (as long as you don't kick the knee levers) so you're guaranteed an excellent low maintenance steel if you buy new or if you buy used, it's a safe buy.

https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=353269

https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=353373
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Larry Phleger · From: DuBois, PA

IMHO If I were starting today, I would go with a universal tuning. You have virtually everything that is available on a D10 with a whole lot less weight. It is also easy to apply any instructional material out there to the U12. The Jeff Newman copedant is a popular U12 copedant. There are pre-owned steels with this setup available for sale here on the Forum from time to time, and all the major builders offer them new as well Smile

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Lotsa steelers in CA...so find some nearby help first (you'll likely need it). Also, make sure that whomever helps you is not infatuated with one brand. Since there really is no "best" brand out there, that will allow you to consider all the various brands that are available.

Bill C. Buntin · Posted 14 Jan 2020 8:37 am

Duncan

In addition to the excellent advice already presented to you, I would say if I was starting again with the background you have provided, I would most certainly go for a single 12 string.

There are two major camps on universal tunings, e9/b6 and Bb6.

Most recently Johnny Cox has presented a very all encompassing tuning for a 12 string that seems to be the best of all worlds. D13.

I am seriously leaning towards it. Iâ€™ve played d10 for so many years but like most am tired of the weight of it, Iâ€™m looking for a lighter alternative and what Johnny has come up with looks really promising.

Universal tunings, in particular the Bb6, are naturally a great choice for jazz

If you are solid in music theory it should be a relatively easy task to start with a more advanced setup like the universal tunings.

However, for beginners I think you will find that most will recommend a single 10 string e9 tuning.

Also, spend the money for a pro instrument. There are some fantastic student level instruments such as the stage one should you decide to go that route.

Just my opinion.

Bill

Asa Brosius · Posted 14 Jan 2020 9:41 am

Great questions-

After years of missteps, playing sub- par and poorly set-up guitars, here are some thoughts about starting out:
Figure out which neck the sounds you like are made on-what players /songs/ sounds draw you to the instrument? get a sense of what gear they are using.
I'd suggest getting to the steel shop in California, calling ahead, and booking some time- the ability to play different models, get a sense of what more money buys you, how you feel about carrying that weight around-well worth it.
I'd also suggest the Paul Franklin Method for instruction- excellent on the basics, technique/theory and beyond- I would unequivocally recommend it to any player at any level in any genre- this would have saved me years of scouring YouTube, digging through old books and tabs, running with bad or incomplete advice, un-learning bad habits.
Regarding costs, it's all expensive, end of story. I'd take Bob Hoffner up on his offer-

Fred Treece · From: California, USA

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

A - I guess if I had to have only one pedal steel to cover all bases, it would be a D10. But I have an 8+5 (8-pedal, 5-lever) E9/B6 universal 12-string that covers a helluvalot of bases, and I would feel pretty lost without it. It really is nice having a wide palette on one neck.

B1 - For the E9 side of things, I'd be just fine with the universal. I think I could add an E9 change or two and get everything I could ever need. But as I'm now trying to progress more on the 6th side of things, I'm finding that it's hard to get everything I want on the universal. The main issues for me are the 6th side lever changes - I am starting to want more than I can reasonably cram on the single neck. And then there are tuning compromises between different usages.

B2 - But I think you could go for a very long time without ever thinking about all that stuff. I know it has taken me a long time to get to the point where I even notice any lack of options on a standard 8+5 steel (either D10 or U12). I think a 12-string universal E9/B6 is a very legitimate option for someone who wants to play many styles in an integrated sort of fashion, which I try to do.

B3 - I agree with Bill B. that Johnny Cox's D13 or E13 12-string universal is very intriguing. It does seem to really "have pretty much everything" on it. If I had an extra 6, 7, or 8+5 12-string around, I'd give it a whirl. I may yet. The disadvantages are 1) the lack of teaching materials on that tuning and 2) what appear to me to be slightly trickier picking grips (groups of strings to be picked) to avoid, e.g., sounding very 6th when trying to go for simple triads in classic country/Americana. This is sort of the same issue as when playing E9 type material on the C6 neck.

C - It is possible to do a lot without a lot of pedals and levers. But unless I was going for the Johnny Cox type setup, I would go for pretty "standard" changes. There is no exact "standard" but a group of fairly similar standard changes. Once you decide on a general approach, you can then do some research on what specific changes you want. Unless you buy a new guitar, some of this will be dictated by what comes up for sale in used guitars. Again, as long as the changes are fairly standard, it should be possible to go for a pretty long time before ever thinking about needing something "more" or "different".

D - I think the absolutely most important thing is to get a steel that plays well and fits you well. Mechanics should be smooth and not too stiff, and pedal/lever changes should have clean, solid stops. If you're tall, you will probably need a guitar that's an inch or two taller than normal, and a narrow single-10 steel may be a problem. If you're extra short, you may need one shorter. I'm tall and had to learn this the hard way. I think the starter steels like the Stage One or ones built by Mullen and GFI are good, solid steels, but no use to me because they're just too small for my large frame.

As far as money goes, I agree with Bob H. that probably $2K to maybe $3K is probably the sweet spot for a modern, solid pedal steel with enough pedals and levers to cover things for a of time horizon in years or a decade or two. You can probably do something cheaper if you go E9 only. But I would not cheap out. Get a good, solid, professional calibre pedal steel.

A final thought - I would not necessarily think you can "buy once and never buy again". Right now, you know next to nothing about the instrument, and there is a lot to knowing how to figure out what you want in the long haul. You need to get your feet wet and learn by experience actually playing. Theory is fine, but there is no substitute for actually getting started and playing a lot. The thing is - if you get a good, smooth-playing and sounding guitar and don't way overpay for it, someone else will want it if you want to change. Main issue is to get started on something good and then shake out what you want as you learn.

Dave Hopping · From: Aurora, Colorado

As a six-stringer who took up steel,I went the doubleneck route,figuring both necks would be equally easy to learn.E9 was fine since it related to six-string,but C6 was a mystery until I went to a U-12.Now it makes much more sense.I think I'd advocate going universal right off.The E9 side should come easy and you can slide(sorry! Winking

) into the B6 side at your own speed.

It's only been mentioned in passing,but where you source a steel can make a difference.If you're close to a steel shop,go there,or check the classifieds here.Stay away from GC and Craigslist. those sources get the used-up guitars that will need a lot of expensive work to be made right.

Duncan Wood · From: Santa Barbara, CA, USA

Thank you all so much for the thoughtful responses! Iâ€™m at a conference right now so Iâ€™ll have to put off some of the active work suggested but I would definitely like to accept Bobâ€™s help, and likely get in touch with Slim when I get back home next week.

I didnâ€™t want to bias anyoneâ€™s responses but I had been morally compelled toward the U12 after playing a few in Nashville - seems like it gives a lot of options without moving the bar to a new neck. I reconsidered after watching Chris Scruggs at the American Legion playing with no pedals, and wondered if it would be worthwhile to build some fundamental technique without the extra amenities. But I havenâ€™t heard that opinion voiced here yet, so maybe the jump from 6-string to the full deal will be reasonable.

I think the idea to buy a PSG came from hearing Paul Franklin play some fast bebop changes, after looking at the credits of a Kacey Musgraves record. So his method series should fit well. Iâ€™m also happy to learn through transcribing and playing along - I grew up in rural KY and learned most of what I know on my own, since there were not many teachers in a 60-mile radius.

I will definitely investigate the D13 tuning. I believe the U12â€™s I tried were E9.

And I appreciate hearing the number $2k pretty consistently. I will certainly get something used, and Iâ€™m not really interested in aesthetic condition at all. I will try to find a good option there, and pray someone bites on this Taylor T5 Iâ€™ve had sitting for years...

Mike Bacciarini · From: Arizona

Hey Duncan,

Asa's suggestion of "getting to the steel shop" is right on. I recommend Jim Palenscar at Steel Guitars of North County (Oceanside). A great guy, very knowledgeable, and has a great selection of steels. Give him a call 760-754-2120. Sure, it's a bit of a drive, but would be well worth it.

http://www.steelguitars.me/
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John Spaulding · From: Wisconsin, USA

Bill C. Buntin · Posted 15 Jan 2020 10:46 am

Duncan, 2nd on going to see Jim Palenscar, absolutely worth the trip. 2nd on the Paul Franklin method. When I started out pre internet days, I used everything Paul had on cassette tape. You wonâ€™t find a better method in my opinion. Wish you luck. Itâ€™s a lot of fun. I too transitioned from 6 string lap steel over to pedals. After 26 years, Iâ€™m still learning. Most fascinating instrument to be sure.

Bill

Damir Besic · From: Nashville,TN.

If I knew back then what I know now, Iâ€™d definitely go with U12 , no doubt in my mind ...
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Johnie King · From: Tennessee, USA

Iâ€™m with Damir 12 string Johnny Cox d 13th set up.

Pete Burak · From: Portland, OR USA

Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

wonderful comments , suggestions and recommendations. But do not overlook or ignore that at one point, all of us started out as beginners. One day we had NO Pedal Steel then the next day we did.

I dare say most if not all of us started "PEDAL STEEL" life on an E9th / 3 Pedal Guitar with maybe 1 lever or perhaps 2,3 or 4, but it took a bit of time to graduate from 1 lever to 4.

This is not to say that many crossed over from a NON Pedal life with a 6 or 8 string tuning. Many did.

We read continuously the struggle from going from an E9th life to a C6th life. Its an odd situation because the music theory is exactly the same. I feel many are looking for the E9th / AB Pedals on the C6th configuration and get bogged down in the THEORY. Its there, over on Peds 5 and 6. But the playing style , the string grips and the right hand execution is different, but the music is the same. The style and tonality is different but the theory is exactly the same.

A UNI tuning can be exceptionally efficient, once we understand it. IF we don't understand the basics, such as the E9th basic, we may not get passed first base.

I'm gonna go out on a limb and I am ready to be flogged, as a long time player and a teacher, I would begin with an E9th Guitar , a nice quality guitar with a 3+4 or 3+5 setup so it can be easily turned around when you are ready. I would not discount a nice D10 as well, 8+5.

I would spend time with the stock E9 and C6 tunings so you can speak the exact same language as MOST players here on this forum. We have players that range from minimal experience and skill all the way up to "A" team professionals on the exact same tunings.

Many here are correctly commenting on a few players specific UNI tunings which are excellent but what they are not saying is those players have been playing for decades, 3 , 4 or 5. They all started the journey on a basic E9 / C6. They took what they knew and applied it to a current day instrument.

At some point down the road when you know the value of both tunings, at that point I would ADD a UNI guitar to the family if you so choose.

Understand the value of 3 peds and 4 or 5 levers on the E9th then 3 or 4 peds and a couple of levers on the C6th, then join it all together on a UNI. Its a transition.

Just my take, I'm ready for flogging and flames !

Laughing

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Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years

CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website

Fred Treece · From: California, USA

I bought a new Stage One when I was shopping for my first pedal steel because there were no other players in my area to help me shop for a used one, and I wanted to be sure everything worked, well, like new. I had spending limitations too.

If you are not intimidated by the mechanics of a more complicated instrument, like a U12 or D10, have the money for a new one, or a friend to help you shop, and oodles of time for practice, jump in. My thinking was to start at the bottom with a high quality S10 with a simpler and more standard setup.

I am a 50-year guitar player who started playing steel 3 years ago. My best advice is to prepare yourself to feel like a complete idiot at first trying to make music on the thing, and at the same time, having an enormously good time learning it.

Richard Sinkler · From: aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana

Larry Phleger · From: DuBois, PA

If you start with a E9/B6 you have the basic E9 copedant to begin to work with. The C6 stuff is also there with the Es lowered when you are ready to move into that area. Many who use this copedant think of it as one tuning with all the options available as needed. I would advise any beginner to start out with the U12 and learn it as your needs and skill level develop.

Mike Perlowin · From: Los Angeles CA

Since you're starting out, you should get a Stage One with 10 strings, 3 pedals and 4 knee levers. This will keep you occupied fora couple of years, by which time you'll know enough to make an informed decision as to what you ultimately want.
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Al Evans · From: Austin, Texas, USA

Just to be contrary: I started two years ago with a 1976 D-10 MSA Classic I bought off Craigslist, knowing nothing at all about playing pedal steel. As I recall, I had to figure out how to do a couple of things to it almost immediately (which I did, thanks to this forum).

A few months later, I decided I was really going to learn to play it, and bought a very nice newer D-10, a Mullen G2. And some time after that, I was lucky enough to get A ZumSteel Encore.

A year later, I took the undercarriage of the MSA apart and cleaned all the bits, readjusted everything, and lubricated everything. After a couple of rounds of readjusting, and finding things I'd done that just wouldn't work, I put it up for a while.

I just set it up again a few days ago, and wow, what a sound. I'm really glad I have it. I'm really glad it has both necks, because I play both of them. I do have the single-neck Encore, which is, as many have said, a wonderful instrument. But I'm not at all sorry I started with an old MSA that required a bit of TLC to sound like it does. To me, figuring out how to cope with the mechanicals is all part of the pedal steel gestalt. Very Happy

--Al Evans
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Duncan Wood · From: Santa Barbara, CA, USA

For anyone still watching this - Slim Heilpern kindly invited me over to play his U12 E9/B6. My impression from playing that, hearing his philosophy and the suggestions above, is to start with a U12. Whether you agree or disagree, what are the steps to getting something compatible with the D13 tuning? Should I wait till the next time I can get to San Diego and go to the legendary shop? Try to find something on the forum?

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