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Topic: Best pull rod metal? |
Dennis Detweiler
From:
Solon, Iowa, US
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Posted 3 Nov 2019 10:32 am |
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What's the best 1/8 inch rod for making pull rods? I'm looking for the least amount of temperature expansion/contraction. Piano wire?
_________________
1976 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics 427 pickup, 1975 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics X-12 pickup, Boss 59 Fender pedal for preamp, NDR-5 Atlantic Delay & Reverb, two Quilter 201 amps, 2- 12" Eminence EPS-12C speakers, ShoBud Pedal, 1949 Epiphone D-8. Revelation preamp into a Crown XLS 1002 power amp. |
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Ian Worley
From:
Sacramento, CA
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Posted 3 Nov 2019 11:30 am
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Carbon steel rod such as music wire is a good choice for stability, you can get it in straight lengths from places like McMaster-Carr or Grainger. A lot of people use stainless welding rod, most of what you find commonly is 300 series, which contains a lot of nickel so would be more susceptible to thermal expansion (but it looks nice!). Harder stainless like 400 series (or probably any magnetic stainless) is going to be more dimensionally stable, more chromium, less nickel, but it's also going to be more difficult to thread. You can find 400 series rod stock at places like McMaster-Carr too, but it's fairly expensive.
That said, I'm speculating that your intent here is to maximize tuning stability. I'm not sure the difference between the different materials is really going to amount to any perceptible difference, especially given all the other variables in a typical guitar that can affect this. Most guitars have a lot of aluminum parts, aluminum is very susceptible to thermal expansion. |
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Mike Scaggs
From:
Nashville, TN
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Posted 3 Nov 2019 11:45 am Re: Best pull rod metal?
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| Dennis Detweiler wrote: |
| What's the best 1/8 inch rod for making pull rods? I'm looking for the least amount of temperature expansion/contraction. Piano wire? |
I use 1/8" stainless steel TIG welding rod. Great stuff but you will need a lathe to thread it normally, at least I do.
~Mike
_________________
I can explain it to you but I can't understand it for you
Zum double Hybrid 8x9, 64 Twin (JBLs), p2pAmps Bad-Dawg, p2pAmps Tremendous Reverb, Visit my website www.p2pamps.com |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 3 Nov 2019 3:13 pm Re: Best pull rod metal?
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| Dennis Detweiler wrote: |
| What's the best 1/8 inch rod for making pull rods? I'm looking for the least amount of temperature expansion/contraction. Piano wire? |
Titanium is the probably best choice for both low expansion and low weight. (It's also very strong and immune to rust and corrosion.) My newest guitar has titanium pull rods, and that's one of the main reasons I bought it. The only downsides to titanium are that it's pricey, and harder to bend and machine than stainless steel. (I think most manufacturers today use stainless steel.)
Piano wire (music wire) or plain steel would be a poor choice because they rust fairly easily, and aluminum simply has too much thermal expansion to be suitable. |
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Bill C. Buntin
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Posted 3 Nov 2019 3:26 pm
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| I’ve nearly always used 3/32 stainless tig rod on mci and emci. It’s a bit fussy to thread but for my purposes has served really well. On the occasion I might use 1/8, I would use stainless. Years ago I used 1/8 music wire on Emmons, Dekley and Msa with good luck. But as stated above is prone to rusting |
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Richard Lotspeich
From:
North Georgia
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Posted 3 Nov 2019 5:14 pm pedal rods
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What about pedal rods? What material and where is everyone getting it?
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Dick Lotspeich |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 3 Nov 2019 7:59 pm Re: pedal rods
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| Richard Lotspeich wrote: |
| What about pedal rods? What material and where is everyone getting it? |
I think most manufacturers use 3/16" stainless steel, which is available at any local metal supplier, or it can be ordered online. |
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Bobby D. Jones
From:
West Virginia, USA
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Posted 3 Nov 2019 8:50 pm Pedal Rods
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If you have a Fasten-All store close. They will order about any Stainless Steel Rods you may need.
Be sure to give them the length you can use.
I ordered some 7/64th" one time and they shipped it in 20 ft. lengths and the delivery was as much as the rods cost. |
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Bob Carlucci
From:
Candor, New York, USA
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Posted 4 Nov 2019 4:04 am
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meh, plain old cheap mild steel will last a lifetime.. Shine it up with a little piece of steel wool or Scotchbrite, then spray it with a $1.99 can of clear. They won't rust, and in 10 years will look the same as new.
I would cut them to size, check them for fit, and thread them before polishing and spraying however.. I have put mild steel rods on steel guitars forever, and they were perfect. easy to work, easy to buy, and last pretty much forever...
Of course shiny polished stainless looks better if you are really worried about having a shiny undercarriage...bob
_________________
I'm over the hill and hittin'rocks on the way down!
no gear list for me.. you don't have the time...... |
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Mike Scaggs
From:
Nashville, TN
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Posted 4 Nov 2019 5:23 am
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| Bob Carlucci wrote: |
meh, plain old cheap mild steel will last a lifetime.. Shine it up with a little piece of steel wool or Scotchbrite, then spray it with a $1.99 can of clear. They won't rust, and in 10 years will look the same as new.
I would cut them to size, check them for fit, and thread them before polishing and spraying however.. I have put mild steel rods on steel guitars forever, and they were perfect. easy to work, easy to buy, and last pretty much forever...
Of course shiny polished stainless looks better if you are really worried about having a shiny undercarriage...bob |
You can buy 3 lbs of stainless rod (309) at your local welding shop for 21.00 and that enough to do 2 guitars. It also is very stable with temp changes will would of course affect the tuning. Pretty cheap way to go IMHO.
_________________
I can explain it to you but I can't understand it for you
Zum double Hybrid 8x9, 64 Twin (JBLs), p2pAmps Bad-Dawg, p2pAmps Tremendous Reverb, Visit my website www.p2pamps.com |
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Ken Byng
From:
Southampton, England
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Posted 4 Nov 2019 6:08 am Re: Best pull rod metal?
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| Donny Hinson wrote: |
| Dennis Detweiler wrote: |
| What's the best 1/8 inch rod for making pull rods? I'm looking for the least amount of temperature expansion/contraction. Piano wire? |
Titanium is the probably best choice for both low expansion and low weight. (It's also very strong and immune to rust and corrosion.) My newest guitar has titanium pull rods, and that's one of the main reasons I bought it. The only downsides to titanium are that it's pricey, and harder to bend and machine than stainless steel. (I think most manufacturers today use stainless steel.)
Piano wire (music wire) or plain steel would be a poor choice because they rust fairly easily, and aluminum simply has too much thermal expansion to be suitable. |
I bought some 1/8" titanium rod on eBay from a seller in India a couple of years back. The weight saving on a loaded D10 would be quite noticeable. It was to me.
_________________
Show Pro D10 - amber (8+6), MSA D10 Legend XL Signature - redburst (9+6), Sho-Bud Pro 111 Custom (8+6), Emmons black Push-Pull D10 (8+5), Zum D10 (8x8), Hudson pedal resonator. Telonics TCA-500, Webb 614-E, |
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Jerry Overstreet
From:
Louisville Ky
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Posted 4 Nov 2019 6:58 am
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Should have tried to find a welding shop per Mike's response, but found some ER 70S 36" welding rod at harbor freight. It's pretty easy to bend and thread although the color is sort of a copper shade. I made a few rods for a Carter using this.
I've also used plain steel piano wire and brass rods from the hdwe. store for 1/8" rods.
I'm really not concerned about any temperature change effects. There should be plenty of slack in the system to allow. Also, all the other metal components have different characteristics as well such as the changer roller fingers, the scissors, bell cranks etc.
Many hobby shops carry 3/32" rod in 3' lengths.
If one is concerned about matching the other rods while installing new changes, perhaps the best option is acquiring from the mfg. provided they are still in business and supporting their guitars.
Generally, my main concern is function before form so a few components that don't perfectly match is no big deal to me. I also divulge any non-stock components when selling an instrument so a buyer can be aware. |
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Bob Carlucci
From:
Candor, New York, USA
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Posted 4 Nov 2019 7:38 am
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| Mike Scaggs wrote: |
| Bob Carlucci wrote: |
meh, plain old cheap mild steel will last a lifetime.. Shine it up with a little piece of steel wool or Scotchbrite, then spray it with a $1.99 can of clear. They won't rust, and in 10 years will look the same as new.
I would cut them to size, check them for fit, and thread them before polishing and spraying however.. I have put mild steel rods on steel guitars forever, and they were perfect. easy to work, easy to buy, and last pretty much forever...
Of course shiny polished stainless looks better if you are really worried about having a shiny undercarriage...bob |
You can buy 3 lbs of stainless rod (309) at your local welding shop for 21.00 and that enough to do 2 guitars. It also is very stable with temp changes will would of course affect the tuning. Pretty cheap way to go IMHO. |
Understood no argument,, Just stating that plain old steel rod would work perfectly as well, and is easier to work. Depends on what the OP wants,, Stainless will look better , but using mild steel might have an effect on tuning stability??.. that I must disagree with... bob
_________________
I'm over the hill and hittin'rocks on the way down!
no gear list for me.. you don't have the time...... |
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Bill C. Buntin
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Posted 4 Nov 2019 7:43 am
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| I can provide just about any size or material, cut and threaded to order |
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Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 4 Nov 2019 8:18 am
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I bought my last pull rods from Michael Yahl and they were already threaded. 
Erv |
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Bill Moore
From:
Manchester, Michigan
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Posted 4 Nov 2019 6:12 pm
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| I think the effect of expansion and contraction on the pull rods is negligible. As long as the temperature is stable and you have tuned the guitar it shouldn't be an issue. When I have made pull rods, I used drill rod in the appropriate size. They are shiny, easy to bend and thread, much more so then stainless steel. You can get it in 3 or 4 foot lengths from any industrial supply or on line metal dealer. |
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Matthew Walton
From:
Fort Worth, Texas
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Posted 4 Nov 2019 7:14 pm
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I was talking to Mitchell Smithey about titanium pullrods, and if I understood correctly, they have an interesting behavior that despite feeling smooth to the touch, they “grip†against each other, leading to undesirable friction during movement.
I have tried multiple times to thread 304 SS. It has always ended in frustration and heartbreak. That said, I’m not a machinist, I don’t play one on TV, and I could have spent more on the die(s).
Regarding aluminum vs stainless steel, given a 32†long pull rod with the end threaded 40 teeth per inch, assuming all other things remaining constant (spoiler, they wouldn’t), going from 70 °F to 100 °F would require an extra 0.134 rotation to retune if using a 6061 aluminum pull rod rather than 304 stainless steel. Assuming I set up the calculation correctly.
(13.1E-6/R - 9.61E-6/R) * 30 R *32in * 40 rotations/in
Where R is degrees Rankine (Fahrenheit scale such that 0 °R is absolute 0). I did that calculation months ago, but I think 13.1E-6 and 9.61E-6 are the coefficients of thermal expansion.
_________________
If something I wrote can be interpreted two ways, and one of the ways makes you sad or angry, I meant the other one.
1981 MSA "The Universal" 9/5 | 2009 MSA S-12 SuperSlide | Peavey Nashville 112 |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 4 Nov 2019 9:03 pm
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| Matthew Walton wrote: |
| I was talking to Mitchell Smithey about titanium pullrods, and if I understood correctly, they have an interesting behavior that despite feeling smooth to the touch, they “grip†against each other, leading to undesirable friction during movement. |
And he's right. But If a steel is set up properly, the rods don't rub together!
| Quote: |
| I have tried multiple times to thread 304 SS. It has always ended in frustration and heartbreak. That said, I’m not a machinist, I don’t play one on TV, and I could have spent more on the die. |
Stainless steel, though not terribly hard, is a very "tough" metal. It's generally hard to saw, hard to drill, and hard to thread. That said, it can be threaded by hand. It takes good quality dies, good tapping oil, and patience. Make a bevel/taper on the rod end, and go slow (backing off at least once/turn), and use plenty of tapping oil.
(The plain old general purpose oil simply isn't as good as name-brand tapping oil. After a few broken taps or dies, you learn that.) |
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Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 5 Nov 2019 7:54 am
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Definitely!
If you are cutting threads on a stainless steel rod you need to use a lot of thread cutting oil.
Erv |
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Ian Worley
From:
Sacramento, CA
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Posted 5 Nov 2019 2:01 pm
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| Just for the record, "stainless steel" is not one specific thing as some of the posts in this thread seem to infer. There are dozens and dozens of different formulations that are all called stainless steel, but their physical properties (including OP's question about dimensional stability) and their relative workability vary significantly depending on the composition. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 6 Nov 2019 3:02 pm
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| Ian Worley wrote: |
| Just for the record, "stainless steel" is not one specific thing as some of the posts in this thread seem to infer. There are dozens and dozens of different formulations that are all called stainless steel, but their physical properties (including OP's question about dimensional stability) and their relative workability vary significantly depending on the composition. |
Yes, that's true of stainless, Ian. But it's true of practically every other metal, too. Manufacturers are constantly coming up with different formulations for steel, stainless steel, aluminum, brass, copper, etc. They do it for reasons of practicality/economy, workability, strength, corrosion/rust resistance, health and safety concerns, and many other reasons as well. Metals are just like amps and steel guitars, every one is a compromise. Finding something that is suitable for your purpose just takes a time and research. |
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Johnny Cox
From:
Williamsom WVA, raised in Nashville TN, Lives in Hallettsville Texas
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Posted 6 Nov 2019 10:45 pm
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We used titanium on the early MSA Milleniums but found that it has a tendency to drag if its against other parts such as the belcranks. When we switched from 1/8 to .109 we also switched to stainless. Has worked perfectly since.
_________________
Johnny "Dumplin" Cox
"YANKIN' STRINGS & STOMPIN' PEDALS" since 1967. |
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Dennis Detweiler
From:
Solon, Iowa, US
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Posted 15 Nov 2019 1:58 pm
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Here's another thought. If a guitar frame is made of aluminum, would it be more accurate to have aluminum pull rods that expand and contract with temperature at the same rate with the frame?
_________________
1976 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics 427 pickup, 1975 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics X-12 pickup, Boss 59 Fender pedal for preamp, NDR-5 Atlantic Delay & Reverb, two Quilter 201 amps, 2- 12" Eminence EPS-12C speakers, ShoBud Pedal, 1949 Epiphone D-8. Revelation preamp into a Crown XLS 1002 power amp. |
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