| Author |
Topic: which end you change at |
Jeremy Threlfall
From:
now in Western Australia
|
Posted 1 Oct 2019 11:01 pm |
|
I have seen a couple of pictures of steels with the changer up at the left hand end of the guitar recently
1.., is a picture that Jeff Spencer posted of Noel Ansteads latest. I spoke with Noel in late 2016 when he was building this and he said it was aimed to keep all the string stretching happening behind (to the left of) the bar, providing a more solid lap-steel-like tone. To put it another way, no matter what you are doing with your changers or the bar, you will always be picking a string which is anchored solidly down there by your right hand
2. Is a picture of a On-TRak currently for sale by Sue Rudd. She reports that that set up was aimed to reduce the changer sounds being picked up by the pickup. That may well be true, as the On-Traks use the pull release changer system, which I guess has the potential - at least - of being noisier than an all-pull changer.
And then, there is the BMI with changers at both ends< I've got no idea how wishy-washy they sound!
Does anyone have any current thinking to share on this interesting concept?
_________________
Luke Drifter on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/ralwaybell
https://www.facebook.com/jeremy.j.threlfall
http://ralwaybell.bandcamp.com/ |
|
|
|
Ian Worley
From:
Sacramento, CA
|
Posted 1 Oct 2019 11:45 pm
|
|
I have a BMI push-pull and there is nothing "wishy-washy" about it. It's a very solid system, it's direct-drive like pull release so pedal action is very quick and smooth, but doesn't require any extra slack in the raises on strings with lowers, and unlike pull-release, it allows for split tuning. The left end changer only does lowers, the right end only raises. My only complaint about that guitar, having nothing to do with the changers, is that the string spacing is noticeably narrower, but mechanically it's a great system.
One minor issue to consider on a guitar with a single changer on the left end is that first pedal cross shaft will be very close to the changer. This could potentially create problems with awkward pull angles depending on the leverage needed (unless the cross shaft were placed remotely and connected to the pedal by a separate linkage). Other than that it seems like a really good idea. The pic below is the underside of that OnTrak from the thread you mentioned, it's hard to tell what's going on with the linkage on that first cross shaft. Interesting that there is another OnTrak for sale on the forum right now, an S12, it has the changer on the right.
 |
|
|
|
Jeremy Threlfall
From:
now in Western Australia
|
Posted 2 Oct 2019 1:11 am
|
|
I was joking with the “width-washyâ€. I know BMIs are solid sounding guitars. I wonder if it has something to do with the tuners on the OnTrak being (or looking like) pull release fingers in their own right. Ian Rae said he built his tuners out of pull release fingers. That might explain why the BMI doesn’t need a solid bridge to sound solid
I haven’t thought about this too hard - just throwing stuff up, see if anything sticks
_________________
Luke Drifter on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/ralwaybell
https://www.facebook.com/jeremy.j.threlfall
http://ralwaybell.bandcamp.com/ |
|
|
|
David Ball
From:
North Carolina High Country
|
Posted 2 Oct 2019 1:26 am
|
|
The old Jon Frye guitar that I have uses changers at both ends in much the same way as some of the Jackson guitars, using pivoting tuners at the keyhead for lowers. Like the BMI that Ian mentions, this system when set up properly is very solid and tight. Unlike the BMI, the Frye guitar is all pull, but taking away the need for slack in the rods usually required in pull-release guitars makes a much tighter feeling instrument.
Dave |
|
|
|
Jeremy Threlfall
From:
now in Western Australia
|
|
|
|
Jeremy Threlfall
From:
now in Western Australia
|
|
|
|
Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
|
Posted 3 Oct 2019 11:27 pm
|
|
Unless my knowledge of physics is totally inadequate, a string doesn't know which end it's being tightened from. The resulting tension is all that matters.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
|
|
|
Jeremy Threlfall
From:
now in Western Australia
|
|
|
|
Ben Michaels
From:
Ohio, USA
|
Posted 4 Oct 2019 1:37 am
|
|
| With the on-track, where are the tuners? |
|
|
|
Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
|
Posted 4 Oct 2019 3:31 am
|
|
One advantage with having the changer (and also tuners) behind the nut, is that the bridge can be optimized for tone without having to compromise for mechanics.
Eliminating tendencies for strings to "zing" and slip/hang on the bridge, counteracting all "body-drop" tendencies while tuning body-resonances, are other possibilities.
Not to mention having near-linear pull for less string-stress, and the possibility to servo-drive the changes and maybe introduce true JI-tuning.
I was on route to design and build for all that, until a few years ago when I gave up on the project because of various health issues. Was fun while it lasted, but other things are more important. |
|
|
|
Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
|
Posted 4 Oct 2019 6:29 am
|
|
| Georg Sørtun wrote: |
| One advantage with having the changer (and also tuners) behind the nut, is that the bridge can be optimized for tone without having to compromise for mechanics. |
Bingo.  Another consideration for having the changer opposite the pickup and picking hand is that there's probably less tendency for mechanical noise to be picked up and amplified by the pickup.
Does your changer affect the sound of your guitar? Here's a little experiment you can do: With the guitar unplugged, strum the guitar while holding the bar around the 10th fret (muting the strings behind the bar). Pay attention to the sound. Now walk around to the front of the guitar, place the bar around the 14th fret, and strum the guitar the same way...only this time, you'll be strumming between the bar and the roller nut. Again, pay attention to the sound.
On some guitars, the difference will be astonishing! And on others, the difference will be slight. Since there are so many dozens of factors involved, it's hard to say what's making the most of the differences you hear...but at least some of them are due to the changer itself. |
|
|
|
Jeremy Threlfall
From:
now in Western Australia
|
|
|
|
David Ball
From:
North Carolina High Country
|
Posted 4 Oct 2019 7:42 am
|
|
| Donny Hinson wrote: |
Does your changer affect the sound of your guitar? Here's a little experiment you can do: With the guitar unplugged, strum the guitar while holding the bar around the 10th fret (muting the strings behind the bar). Pay attention to the sound. Now walk around to the front of the guitar, place the bar around the 14th fret, and strum the guitar the same way...only this time, you'll be strumming between the bar and the roller nut. Again, pay attention to the sound.
On some guitars, the difference will be astonishing! And on others, the difference will be slight. Since there are so many dozens of factors involved, it's hard to say what's making the most of the differences you hear...but at least some of them are due to the changer itself. |
Interesting--I tried this on a couple of my guitars. On my Jackson Pro IV, there was no real difference in the tone. But on my old Sho Bud Permanent with no roller nut, the difference in tone was astonishing. The changer on both of these guitars have very thin aluminum fingers over relatively large steel axles, which I think contributes a lot to the great sound both guitars have. So I guess my question is whether the compromise for mechanics in the changer is actually a big part of what we've become accustomed to in pedal steel tone.
Years back, the Catgut Acoustical Society, and in particular Carleen Hutchins, designed a family of "improved" violins, using scientific methods to try to achieve perfection. The performance of these instruments, when looked at via scientific instrumentation was very impressive. However, to my ears, the tone was really lacking. Probably in large part of what I had already trained my ears to hear as "good violin sound." The same thing might well apply to pedal steels too. I don't know.
Dave |
|
|
|
Jeremy Threlfall
From:
now in Western Australia
|
|
|
|
Jeremy Threlfall
From:
now in Western Australia
|
Posted 4 Oct 2019 7:57 am
|
|
| David Ball wrote: |
Years back, the Catgut Acoustical Society, and in particular Carleen Hutchins, designed a family of "improved" violins, using scientific methods to try to achieve perfection. The performance of these instruments, when looked at via scientific instrumentation was very impressive. However, to my ears, the tone was really lacking. Probably in large part of what I had already trained my ears to hear as "good violin sound." The same thing might well apply to pedal steels too. |
Like some people’s preference (and mine) for pot volume pedals for the vintage tone roll-on, in a way
_________________
Luke Drifter on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/ralwaybell
https://www.facebook.com/jeremy.j.threlfall
http://ralwaybell.bandcamp.com/ |
|
|
|
Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
|
Posted 4 Oct 2019 2:38 pm
|
|
What scientists and engineers measure as imperfections in musical instruments is what gives them their character.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
|
|
|
Georg Sørtun
From:
Mandal, Agder, Norway
|
Posted 4 Oct 2019 4:23 pm
|
|
| Ian Rae wrote: |
| What scientists and engineers measure as imperfections in musical instruments is what gives them their character. |
In well-designed instruments character can be "tuned" in and out while playing, while "standardized" character tends to be more "rigid" allowing no other alternative than to switch instrument if it doesn't suit ones preferences.
What I mean by the above is that I personally prefer instruments that are very sensitive to playing-styles/-techniques, so when I change style/technique the instrument reacts by changing tone (or character). "Good" or "bad" (or perfect or imperfect) sounding doesn't make sense to me, unless it is a range I can choose freely from while playing – without having to turn knobs.
My experience as an engineer and musician (in that order) tells me that it is easier to "broaden the character range" of a PSG when the mechanical demands is kept from interfering with design of the tone-shaping parts. |
|
|
|
Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
|
Posted 5 Oct 2019 1:49 am
|
|
I'm not very experienced on pedal steel, but what I do know from playing other instruments is that the player has "his" sound or sounds in his head, and that a "good" instrument is one that enables those sounds with less effort than a "poor" one.
When I taught trombone my boss once complemented on the sound I got from a cheap student horn but I explained that it was a struggle and I wouldn't be able to keep it going for long.
I think this is to some extent what Georg is on to. Music and engineering are inextricable.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
|
|
|
Jim Pitman
From:
Waterbury Ctr. VT 05677 USA
|
Posted 8 Oct 2019 11:28 am
|
|
Another advantage of changer on left end is that the A,
B, and C changer linkage rods are much shorter.
Ever noticed on an all pull that when the temperature changes you got some tweaking to do with the nylon nuts much more so for those three pedals (our three favorite) than the ones closer to the changer?
I play uni so I have quite few pedals on the right side of middle - rarely need to adjust those.
It's simple physics - coefficient of expansion times the length of the rod means a longer rod will change length more than a shorter rod over the same temperature change. |
|
|
|
David Ball
From:
North Carolina High Country
|
Posted 8 Oct 2019 11:58 am
|
|
Good point.
Dave |
|
|
|
Glenn Taylor
From:
Denver, CO, USA
|
|
|
|
Ian Worley
From:
Sacramento, CA
|
Posted 9 Oct 2019 1:26 pm
|
|
Your guitars are super cool Glenn.
I can't tell from the pic how the movement from the pedals is transferred to the pull rods and yokes but I'm speculating that there are individual pivot levers behind the plate on the left side of the pic with the grid of holes, kind of like Gene Fields' PS210 design but more compact? Different leverage combinations are accomplished by moving in or out from the center of the pivot lever? Do tell, it's pretty cool. |
|
|
|
