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Post new topic My E13TH / D13TH 12 string tuning
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Author Topic:  My E13TH / D13TH 12 string tuning
b0b


From:
Cloverdale, CA
Post  Posted 6 Jun 2019 10:05 pm    
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Johnny Cox wrote:
I don't know much at all about theory so I have no idea what pentatonic is. I just know that I don't need to lug around a double neck anymore.

All of the other universal tunings are too limited. You always lose something. This tuning gains by being able to blend both E9th and C6th licks, pedals, ideas and sounds and only thinking in one key/tuning. I wish I had done this 40 years ago.

Here is a D13th with the changes in more "standard" positions than Johnny's. I think that the relationships to a D-10 are more obvious with Emmons ABC pedals and the second string half-stop. The D13th Universal concept adapts easily to any U-12 guitar with triple raise / triple lower capability.


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Johnny Cox


From:
Lives in Schulenburg Texas
Post  Posted 7 Jun 2019 6:49 am    
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Thanks for taking the time to do that chart Bob. I really didn't realize that raising the 2nd string was a standard change. I don't have it. And the main reason for my extra knee lever is that I hate half stops.
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b0b


From:
Cloverdale, CA
Post  Posted 7 Jun 2019 8:08 am    
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Understood. I don't like half-stops either, and I have my own knee lever positions firmly ingrained in muscle memory. The 2nd string raise, along with the 1st string whole step raise, has become very popular with younger players. My point was to make a chart that might trigger an "aha!" moment in people who study D-10.

Aside from lowering the pitch a whole step, the difference from E9th is the insertion of another string between the high E and B. This requires a retraining of the right hand grips.

Aside from raising the pitch a whole step, the main difference from C6th is the insertion of a string between the middle E and C. Also, you sometimes need to use a lever (RKR) to get the right low notes.

Changing copedents to this extreme degree is not easy, but it's worth the effort if you play a lot. I've been playing D6th with E9th pedals since 2010. My biggest problem is that, after more than 30 years of E9th, I still sometimes go to the 10th fret to kick off a country standard in G. Loudly, with confidence. Embarassed Some habits are harder to break than others.

On a somewhat related note, I see that Bobby Black has been playing 11-string C6th lap steel. His extra string is the second string: B. This is the same interval as the 2nd string on E9th (the major 7th tone). D13th Universal has this. Cool My 10-string D6th doesn't. Oh Well
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Johnny Cox


From:
Lives in Schulenburg Texas
Post  Posted 11 Jun 2019 7:08 am    
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Hey b0b, I discovered another jewel on this tuning yesterday while trying to figure out the one last thing I was missing. As you may know I'm a huge Chalker fan and was missing the low 6th note on the bottom. So I tried doing a split on P7 on the 9th string D to D# with LKLI. Well it just wouldn't work. I discovered that if I lower the 8th string E to Eb on P7 and don't move string 9 I get both on the same pedal.
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b0b


From:
Cloverdale, CA
Post  Posted 11 Jun 2019 7:47 am    
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Laughing Funny, I was going to suggest that! It also gives you the freedom to raise or lower the 9th string with your left knees, for fast runs.
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Pete Burak


From:
Portland, OR USA
Post  Posted 12 Jun 2019 6:17 am    
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b0b could you possibly post Johnny's Copedant in terms of E9/B6 notes?
Trying to wrap my mind around it Smile
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b0b


From:
Cloverdale, CA
Post  Posted 12 Jun 2019 11:05 am    
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There is no equivalent of a B6th mode, Pete. You don't have to lower your root strings to switch from "9th mode" to "6th mode".

It's D9th (like E9th with a string added between the high E and B) and D6th (like B6th with a string added between middle B and D#). He uses RKR to get the low notes of the D6th tuning as needed.
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Gene Kelley


From:
Texas, USA
Post  Posted 14 Jun 2019 1:14 pm    
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Bob, Johnny: What about raising string 5,(6th) up a half step on the A pedal to flat 7? That would give you flat 7 in scale or dropping it a half step with A&B pedals and also give you a major and minor with A&B down?
Thx,
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b0b


From:
Cloverdale, CA
Post  Posted 14 Jun 2019 4:08 pm    
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I've seen people do that. It avoids the sympathetic ring of unison strings. I have B to C on a separate lever on my D6th, and I often use it with my A pedal. But I don't see anywhere to put it on this D13th without messing something up. Adding it the A pedal would be okay, in my opinion, if you feel that you don't need the unison licks.

Notice that D13th has the C note on the 2nd string for when you need it. I don't have that string on D6th. Oh Well
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Brad Malone


From:
Pennsylvania, USA
Post  Posted 19 Jun 2019 9:21 am     Pure Genius
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bOb or Johnny..What you two guys have come up with is pure genius...I suggest you guys do as Jeff Newman did and put out a book and CD of "Music to get D13th or E13 on your 12 string tuning" Just put eight or ten standard tunes in the book and CD so people can learn how to use the new set up. This new set up will then become the standard because there will be no need for double 10's when everything can be played on a 12 STRINGER. I think your 5 pedal, 7 knee lever should be the way to go and be the standard because all seven knees do not need to be extended if the Music you are playing does not require all of them..but they are there when you need them. Thanks for all your great work..you guys are pure GOLD.
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Sonny Jenkins


From:
New Braunfels, Tx. 78130
Post  Posted 9 Jul 2019 7:02 am    
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I think b0b and Johnny have hit a home run with bases loaded,,,Grand slam!!!

Let's think,,,tradition = 2 necks, 1 with a 9th tuning,,the other with a 6th tuning,,,but actually the E9 originally already included a 6th (C# on 2nd string raised to D and D#, a tuning used by a lot of the old timers),,,and Emmons used a 9th (D) on his C6th tuning. b0b split the E and C tunings down the middle, a happy medium with D,,,and he and Johnny have created a copedent that, while it may take some getting used to avoiding certain strings (not as "grab a handful" as our standard C6) it is definitely an "all that is necessary",,,as Johnny said originally "all there" tuning. I 100% believe the ONLY thing that keeps this tuning from being standard is that WALL of TRADITION!!! I can't help but wonder,,,if Emmons and Newman were here today,,,,????? If I remember correctly, they both tried universal one neck at about the same time,,,Emmons went back to tradition,,,,Newman made it work for him and a lot of the rest of us.

We can't let this thread die,,,this can be historic in the PSG community,,,and b0b and Johnny are pioneers!!!!

And this is all in addition to b0b's genius in putting together the best forum format on the www!!!!!!
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b0b


From:
Cloverdale, CA
Post  Posted 9 Jul 2019 7:53 am    
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Johnny Cox and I approached the problem from two different sides. I started with C6th, he started with E9th. Splitting the difference to base the copedent in D was the big first step. Johnny added 2 strings to get all of the strings from both tunings, while I chose to live without two of the E9th strings.

If I didn't already have the "guitar of my dreams" (a Ross Shafer Sierra S-10), I'd be playing an S-12 with Johnny's copedent right now. I think it's absolutely brilliant - a total solution to the redundancies of the D-10.

Builders have been making S-12 guitars with 7+5 for decades. It's not an uncommon instrument. Anyone who's setting one up for D13th should contact me for strings. I'd be happy to put together a custom set. I'll add it to the Forum's catalog if there's a demand for them.
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b0b


From:
Cloverdale, CA
Post  Posted 9 Jul 2019 8:11 am    
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Pete Burak wrote:
b0b could you possibly post Johnny's Copedant in terms of E9/B6 notes?
Trying to wrap my mind around it Smile

I can't wrap my mind around B6th, Pete, but here's how it relates to the standard 10-string E9th and C6th necks.
Tab:
E9th:
1 F#
2 D#
3 G#
4 E
5 C#  <-- extra string
6 B
7 G#
8 F#
9 E
10 D
11 B
12 E  <-- extra string

C6th:
1 D
2 B   <-- extra string
3 E
4 C
5 A
6 G
7 E
8 D   <-- extra string
9 C
10 A  (use RKR)
11 F  (use RKR)
12 C

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Sonny Jenkins


From:
New Braunfels, Tx. 78130
Post  Posted 9 Jul 2019 9:14 am    
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I think the biggest deterrent for players who are already playing would be the grips (and maybe a lack of instruction material) and the "grab a handful" advantage of a standard C6 tuning. Maybe that was the thought behind putting the chromatic strings on the outside,,,out of the mix,,,quien sabe???
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Johnny Cox


From:
Lives in Schulenburg Texas
Post  Posted 9 Jul 2019 9:21 am    
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I have posted a couple videos on both my Facebook page and YouTube pages. They highlight the ease of playing in a single mode getting both E9th and C6th sounds.
_________________
Johnny "Dumplin" Cox
"YANKIN' STRINGS & STOMPIN' PEDALS" since 1967.
Sho-Bud and MSA pedal steels. Telonics and Sho-Bud amplifiers and volume pedals.
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b0b


From:
Cloverdale, CA
Post  Posted 9 Jul 2019 2:32 pm    
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Sonny Jenkins wrote:
I think the biggest deterrent for players who are already playing would be the grips (and maybe a lack of instruction material) and the "grab a handful" advantage of a standard C6 tuning. Maybe that was the thought behind putting the chromatic strings on the outside,,,out of the mix,,,quien sabe???


Right. Here's another view that shows where those "extra strings" would fall in the E9th and C6th tunings:
Tab:
  D13th   E9th
1 E        F#
2 C#       D#
3 F#       G#
4 D        E
5 B        -- (C#)
6 A        B
7 F#       G#
8 E        F#
9 D        E
10 C       D
11 A       B
12 D       -- (E)

  D13th   C6th
1 E        D
2 C#       -- (B)
3 F#       E
4 D        C
5 B        A
6 A        G
7 F#       E
8 E        -- (D)
9 D        C
10 C>B*    A 
11 A>G*    F
12 D       C

*Use RKR to lower 10 and 11

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b0b


From:
Cloverdale, CA
Post  Posted 9 Jul 2019 3:22 pm    
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Johnny Cox wrote:
I have posted a couple videos on both my Facebook page and YouTube pages. They highlight the ease of playing in a single mode getting both E9th and C6th sounds.


Here they are:

https://youtu.be/joXnpzXO72g

https://youtu.be/mzURP65phf8

https://youtu.be/L9L4xYQhEmw
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Sonny Jenkins


From:
New Braunfels, Tx. 78130
Post  Posted 9 Jul 2019 4:35 pm    
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That's cheatin' Johnny,,,anything would sound good with Jason Roberts band,,,,LOL!!!!!
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Johnny Cox


From:
Lives in Schulenburg Texas
Post  Posted 10 Jul 2019 11:20 am    
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Thanks Sonny. And thank you Bob for putting up all the charts and links. I'm really enjoying this tuning.
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Johnny "Dumplin" Cox
"YANKIN' STRINGS & STOMPIN' PEDALS" since 1967.
Sho-Bud and MSA pedal steels. Telonics and Sho-Bud amplifiers and volume pedals.
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Greg Cutshaw


From:
Corry, PA, USA
Post  Posted 18 Jul 2019 6:52 am    
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I've been following this for a while and it seems to cover all the bases of E9th and C6th pedal tunings. But so does my S-12 Excel which gives a totally standard E9th and C6th tunings but extends the range of both, adding low strings to the E9th and restoring the high G to the C6 tuning AND adding two chromatic top strings to it.

http://www.gregcutshaw.com/Excel%2012%20String%20Keyless/Excel%2012%20String%20Keyless.html

This guitar is super light and compact and the mechanics are smooth and positive.

I would like to set up a room with the D13 and my guitar for all to try. Either one seems to be a more compact solution than a D-10. I like the D6th and D9th tone a bit better than the lower range of the C6th and sometimes too high sound of the E9th.

I should note that I've packed 8 floor pedals and 9 knee levers into my Excel.
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Fred Treece


From:
California, USA
Post  Posted 18 Jul 2019 9:27 am    
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D13 looks brilliant to me. Greg’s Excel too, but the D13 seems easier for my simple mind to wrap around. There’s so much musicality right there in the open tuning, you could get halfway through a song without ever touching a pedal or lever.

Is the choice to go D13 rather than E13 mostly about timbre? Or would the mechanics be affected too?
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b0b


From:
Cloverdale, CA
Post  Posted 18 Jul 2019 9:55 am    
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Fred Treece wrote:
Is the choice to go D13 rather than E13 mostly about timbre? Or would the mechanics be affected too?


I switched my Carter D-10 from C6th to D6th for the timbre. I just restrung it and retuned the pedals. No mechanical change was needed.

The common C6th chord voicings might not sound right with the plain middle G# string of E13th taking the place of the C6th's wound middle E. Also, not having access to those low Eb and Bb chords from the C6th 3rd fret would mess up a lot of existing jazz arrangements. I go to the first fret a lot on my D6th.

I also prefer the D9th timbre over E9th, always have. And with 10 strings, the low G (with RKR) is really useful.
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Steve Knight


From:
NC
Post  Posted 19 Jul 2019 6:29 am    
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Wow, this tuning looks great. I've never been tempted by the standard Universal tuning becuase, like many pros point out, you're missing out on a lot of D10 sounds. What has always bugged me about the D10 is that it's really two different instruments. None of the pedals or knee levers do the same thing on either neck. This D13 looks like it really captures everything from both necks of the D10 into one tuning. You can just play what you want without switching necks and having to re-think everything.
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