The Steel Guitar Forum Store 

Post new topic Talking Shop Compression and Reverb
Goto page Previous  1, 2
Reply to topic
Author Topic:  Talking Shop Compression and Reverb
Tony Prior


From:
Charlotte NC
Post  Posted 9 Jul 2018 12:02 am    
Reply with quote

Bill Hatcher wrote:
in regards to compression, in the old days before everyone in the universe could just order studio gear online and claim to have a recording studio, the engineers would say if you can hear the compressor....its too much.

now days, there is no standard. each to his own.


Very true, but lets not lose sight, In the OLD days everyone was recording ANALOG, if you exceeded 0 DB it was a gentle transition past the 0 db point, the audio didn't jump into saturation. Compression was not as important. In the digital domain with todays DAW's , the previous Analog 0 DB reference point has now dropped to - 6 db, thats the so called standard digital audio ref. As we approach 0 DB in signal we get into hideous saturation which cannot be repaired.

Too many times we reference the OLD DAYS without consideration that todays standards are not the same as yesterdays.

Exceeding 0DB in the analog realm didn't necessarily ruin a track , it made things a bit hotter, while approaching or exceeding 0 DB in the digital realm means "start over" 'cause you can't fix that.

In the old days for certain compressors were not everyday tools but in this new digital era the compressor can be, if used properly, a session saver. This is probably why every DAW or Digital Workstation on the planet, even the lowest priced units,have an included compressor in the dynamics processing bin. Evidently someone knew something was up !
_________________
Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years

CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website

David Mitchell

 

From:
Tyler, Texas
Post  Posted 9 Jul 2018 10:42 am    
Reply with quote

I think everybody is right in this thread with a valid point. I haven't tuned into the steel forum in over 6 months but had a little time to kill today so here I am. Here is my thoughts on compression. In the 60's through 90's on analog recorders I had racks full of hardware like 1176'S and La-2's. I got a picture on Facebook of my rack with six 1176's and 3 original La-2a's. I used them all. I had to most of the time to get people that couldn't control dynamics to fit on a vinyl record. In those years we never thought of them as an effect but the lesser of two evils to control dynamics. I prefered not using them but since I didn't have enough fingers to ride gain on 24 tracks or at least 16 tracks (remember it was entire bands and not one track at a time) the compressor was more like an auto-leveler. We didn't have automation/ total recall till SSL came out with it in the 90's. Compression did alter the tone but back then we already had enough mush going with tape compression. Around the year 2000 I started using Steinberg Nuendo in my own studio and solved the problem I hated for all those years. I could now control levels by editing the .wav files instead of using compressors for everything without altering the original sound. Now I still use them but not what I originally used them for. I like a tad of 1176 (either hardware or plugin) to add a sheen to the vocal tracks that you just can't get with anything else. If you use it correctly it will put the vocals in your face without having any pumping, nasty artifacts. La-2a can be used the same way to put some meat on a tracks bones. So compression to me has changed from volume level management to a spice on the cake now that I can spend all the time in the world on a mix moving .wav files around. It's all good!
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail

David Mitchell

 

From:
Tyler, Texas
Post  Posted 9 Jul 2018 11:13 am    
Reply with quote

This was the last album I recorded before I went into full retirement. It was AWA awards 2014 Album of the Year and no compressors except for a tad of 1176 on Chuck's vocal to get it to pop out in the mix. Very little wav file adjustments because the musician's were so good. They balanced themselves. Junior Knight was the steel player.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vGBNel3mb44
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail

werner althaus


From:
lincoln, NE
Post  Posted 9 Jul 2018 8:11 pm    
Reply with quote

Tony Prior wrote:

Very true, but lets not lose sight, In the OLD days everyone was recording ANALOG, if you exceeded 0 DB it was a gentle transition past the 0 db point, the audio didn't jump into saturation. Compression was not as important. In the digital domain with todays DAW's , the previous Analog 0 DB reference point has now dropped to - 6 db, thats the so called standard digital audio ref. As we approach 0 DB in signal we get into hideous saturation which cannot be repaired.

!


There's just a little too much misinformation ( in bold) in this post to ignore so here I go:
In the analog days (I assume that means tape) there were all kinds of scenarios possible when you "exceed 0 DB". Tape machines could be lined up all kind of different ways, with more or less headroom, different bias curves, etc, what happened when you pushed past 0 VU was a result of many factors, to say it was a gentle transition oversimplifies things. Add shitty analog electronics on semi-pro machines like Tascam and Fostex and you could get into ratty, clipped sounding recordings pretty quickly. Many of the budget machines could barely reproduce the signal fed into them and it wasn't all lovely tape saturation you were getting, far from it. The first time semi-pro studios had recorders that could record signals faithfully was with the advent of ADATs and DA-88s, but at 16 bit resolution and poor dither they too needed dynamics control to achieve hotter levels.

Anyway, in digital the "analog 0 DB reference point" has not dropped to "-6 db", far from it, it is whatever you want it to be . (Truth be told , it was the same way with high quality Reel-to-reel machines and high output tape stock, engineers constantly had to weigh s/n against headroom and lined them up with the headroom they needed/ wanted ).
Most common digital reference levels, aka the point where an analog 0 VU signal (+ 4 dBu, -10 dBv or whatever) equals a given digital signal measured in dBFS (full scale) are -12, -14, -18 and -20 dBFS , not -6 db, as you claim, but there's no reason you couldn't build 30 dB of headroom into your system, whatever you need, assuming your analog gear can keep up.
One really shouldn't record at - 6 dBFS approaching 0 dBFS, there's no need to. A good digital peak level of -18 to -12 dBFS recorded at 24 bits gives you enormous headroom and superior S/N ratio unobtainable with analog recorders.
And your mix should leave enough headroom for the mastering guy to do his work. For that you should monitor True peak levels (usually hotter than regular peak level) , same goes for encoding, it too requires headroom. In short, never get close to 0 dBFS.

So the need for compressors today is less than back in the analog days. Back then you had to print levels as hot as possible and with EQ to get good s/n and printing EQ kept you from raising tape noise by boosting highs during the mix. Therefore you had to contain peaks that might over modulate your input while maintaining hot average levels. None of that is necessary with digital, if properly used. 0 dBFS is not a reference level, it's the maximum level at the AD and DA conversion. There's no need to approach those levels until you get to mastering.
View user's profile Send private message

werner althaus


From:
lincoln, NE
Post  Posted 9 Jul 2018 8:25 pm    
Reply with quote

David Mitchell wrote:
I think everybody is right in this thread with a valid point. I haven't tuned into the steel forum in over 6 months but had a little time to kill today so here I am. Here is my thoughts on compression. In the 60's through 90's on analog recorders I had racks full of hardware like 1176'S and La-2's. I got a picture on Facebook of my rack with six 1176's and 3 original La-2a's. I used them all. I had to most of the time to get people that couldn't control dynamics to fit on a vinyl record. In those years we never thought of them as an effect but the lesser of two evils to control dynamics. I prefered not using them but since I didn't have enough fingers to ride gain on 24 tracks or at least 16 tracks (remember it was entire bands and not one track at a time) the compressor was more like an auto-leveler. We didn't have automation/ total recall till SSL came out with it in the 90's. Compression did alter the tone but back then we already had enough mush going with tape compression. Around the year 2000 I started using Steinberg Nuendo in my own studio and solved the problem I hated for all those years. I could now control levels by editing the .wav files instead of using compressors for everything without altering the original sound. Now I still use them but not what I originally used them for. I like a tad of 1176 (either hardware or plugin) to add a sheen to the vocal tracks that you just can't get with anything else. If you use it correctly it will put the vocals in your face without having any pumping, nasty artifacts. La-2a can be used the same way to put some meat on a tracks bones. So compression to me has changed from volume level management to a spice on the cake now that I can spend all the time in the world on a mix moving .wav files around. It's all good!


Great post Smile
View user's profile Send private message

Tony Prior


From:
Charlotte NC
Post  Posted 10 Jul 2018 12:53 am    
Reply with quote

double strike
_________________
Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years

CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website


Last edited by Tony Prior on 10 Jul 2018 1:01 am; edited 1 time in total
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website

Tony Prior


From:
Charlotte NC
Post  Posted 10 Jul 2018 1:00 am    
Reply with quote

quote="werner althaus"]
Tony Prior wrote:



There's just a little too much misinformation ( in bold) in this post to ignore so here I go:


Thanks for setting me straight, I'll refrain from future posts.
_________________
Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years

CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website

werner althaus


From:
lincoln, NE
Post  Posted 10 Jul 2018 5:00 am    
Reply with quote

Tony Prior wrote:
quote="werner althaus"]
Tony Prior wrote:



There's just a little too much misinformation ( in bold) in this post to ignore so here I go:


Thanks for setting me straight, I'll refrain from future posts.


Hmmm, not sure that my intend was to set anybody straight. Neither would I want you to refrain from future posts. I merely pointed out what I believe to be fundamental misconceptions about digital vs analog audio as it relates to dynamic range control.
If my posts come across in a way that offends I apologize, again. My only intend is to further the discussion.
View user's profile Send private message

Bill Hatcher

 

From:
Atlanta Ga. USA
Post  Posted 14 Jul 2018 4:15 pm    
Reply with quote

the "old days"....

lets see who we might be thinking of....

sinatra, the beatles, chet atkins, symphony orchestras with two mics, classic recordings that actually sound markedly better than the majority of the crap you hear today. so, in the old days, many studios...hold that thought...there were no home studios with any good gear in them or real engineers..so a studio in the old days was an actual studio that were like places you never got to go, because they were expensive and usually only good musicians engineers and decent artists worked there.

so, back to the compressors. i talked to bill porter one day. bill might have been the greatest engineer chet atkins ever hired at rca. look him up. he told me that "in the old days" they only had one or two compressors in the studio. the recording techniques did not use them much. the compressor was usually only used on the star of the session such as a vocalist or if an instrumental then the lead instrument got it. compression was not a gadget like it is today. you look at a vu meter of any pop record out you will see brick wall limiting/ compression. the mix ramps up as loud as it can be and just pegs there. there is very little dynamic range at all. thats why in the "old days" you could hear very distinctly everything done processing wise. so, very little compressing done on the original tracking session. you hear the tape compression usually. then on mixing, no compression was usually added, because the majority of the time lets say 1962 what you tracked was basically mixed while it was going to mono or two tracks. now mastering... mastering set ups were again cut to tape, so there is some natural tape compression...which by the way..when you compare that to blasting through a dedicated compressor device natural tape compression is very light. the mastering stage is where they would add some compression to the mix just for controlling peaks not to smash then entire mix down. ask any good mastering engineer...they will tell you that a good engineer will have recorded the session well and mixed it well that that mastering is just a very small part of adjusting some peaks and some overall eq things. poor engineering and poor mixing cannot be saved at mastering. so again, a good engineer in the "old days" would not want to hear the compressor as they are used today. they also knew that most of the radio stations broadcasting the material would be smashing the feed to the transmitting tower in order to squeeze every bit of coverage they could get out of whatever they were allowed by the gov. so compression in the old days....quite different from now. i have to fight engineers all the time about compressors. try to do a bass session with no compressor these days. most players do not know how to even play evenly so you dont need one, but even if they did, engineers crank up the compressor just as a matter of fact. i spent so long in the recording studios that i have a musicians union pension for it! lol the old days look better and better to me and sound better and better every day. home home on the dynamic range....Winking
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail

werner althaus


From:
lincoln, NE
Post  Posted 14 Jul 2018 9:47 pm    
Reply with quote

double post

Last edited by werner althaus on 14 Jul 2018 9:57 pm; edited 1 time in total
View user's profile Send private message

werner althaus


From:
lincoln, NE
Post  Posted 14 Jul 2018 9:47 pm    
Reply with quote

werner althaus wrote:
Bill Hatcher wrote:
....i have to fight engineers all the time about compressors. try to do a bass session with no compressor these days. most players do not know how to even play evenly so you dont need one, but even if they did, engineers crank up the compressor just as a matter of fact.


OMG, this is soo true and frustrating. Today it's the engineers who get their chops from the internet that use compression because it's there. Live sound engineers are even worse, they try to recreate live the smashed mess that studio albums have become. Watch the meters on a digital live console with some kid at the controls, it looks like the meter deflection you'd get playing a CD, no wonder it sounds so bad. In the days when I worked in Sound reinforcement you rarely saw any (VU) meters move, the consoles were "loud enough" to leave plenty of headroom and the music had (a) pulse
The stuff today's "Mixing engineers" do to bass is beyond criminal. Every remnant of finger or pick attack is removed in favor of a synth-like bottom end that just rests heavy and lifeless on the track. Every track on the radio has this sound, this squished sponge garbage that only gives pitch constantly but zero pulse. Unlistenable IMHO, thanks for pointing it out, rant over, ha
View user's profile Send private message

Mike Neer


From:
NJ
Post  Posted 25 Jul 2018 7:19 am    
Reply with quote

The only time I really like the effect of over-compression of tracks is when it is to bring up the ambience or room sound. It does smooth out bass tracks, especially if you're using multiband, and I do like some examples of heavily compressed close-miked drums. Some engineers have effectively used compression to create a sound/mood, one coming to mind is S. Husky Höskulds. The dude has been involved in several great records (to my mind).
_________________
http://www.steelinstruction.com/
http://mikeneer.com
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website

John Macy

 

From:
Rockport TX/Denver CO
Post  Posted 27 Feb 2019 9:01 am    
Reply with quote

Those are some great records, Mike. Another guy who uses compression in a great way is Tchad Blake, especially with the Spectrasonic 610 compressor/limiter (he has serial #10 and I have #11...). There is nothing quite like a room mic spanked with a 610. And these guys use mondo amounts of compression and yet make extremely dynamic records...
_________________
John Macy
Rockport, TX
Engineer/Producer/Steel Guitar
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website

Mike Neer


From:
NJ
Post  Posted 2 Mar 2019 8:12 pm    
Reply with quote

John Macy wrote:
Those are some great records, Mike. Another guy who uses compression in a great way is Tchad Blake, especially with the Spectrasonic 610 compressor/limiter (he has serial #10 and I have #11...). There is nothing quite like a room mic spanked with a 610. And these guys use mondo amounts of compression and yet make extremely dynamic records...


Absolutely, man. I love Latin Playboys records and even saw them live with Tchad on bass and samples and other weird things. But perhaps one of my favorite records of all time is Tom Waits's Bone Machine, which he mixed a lot of. That's where my head is coming from, those great records. I love pure recordings, but I love unpure recordings made by people who know what they're doing.
_________________
http://www.steelinstruction.com/
http://mikeneer.com
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website

John Macy

 

From:
Rockport TX/Denver CO
Post  Posted 2 Mar 2019 8:36 pm    
Reply with quote

Man, I have to go revisit Bone Machine, great record. Also love Kiko and the Lavender Moon by Los Lobos, which is a good Tchad record. Pure, smashed, it’s all good!
_________________
John Macy
Rockport, TX
Engineer/Producer/Steel Guitar


Last edited by John Macy on 6 Mar 2019 7:59 pm; edited 1 time in total
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website

Mike Neer


From:
NJ
Post  Posted 6 Mar 2019 7:01 am    
Reply with quote

John Macy wrote:
Man, I have to go revisit Bone Machine, great record. Also love Kiki and the Lavender Moon by Los Lobos, which is a good Tchad record. Pure, smashed, it’s all good!


Kiko is one of the best records ever and also best-sounding. I also like Colossal Head which is smashed to bits. Also, Lisa Germano’s Slide is really wonderful if you haven’t heard it.
_________________
http://www.steelinstruction.com/
http://mikeneer.com
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website

John Macy

 

From:
Rockport TX/Denver CO
Post  Posted 6 Mar 2019 7:01 pm    
Reply with quote

I forgot that Lisa record and listened today and it’s great. I got to work with Los Lobos on Tin Can Trust. Amazing guys and music!
_________________
John Macy
Rockport, TX
Engineer/Producer/Steel Guitar
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website

Brett Lanier

 

From:
Madison, TN
Post  Posted 7 Mar 2019 8:15 am     Re: Talking Shop Compression and Reverb
Reply with quote

James Quillian wrote:
So, What I am asking is what settings would most likely be a best guess or starting point on these two effects?

I would recommend putting these effects on a bus send, especially for reverb.

In this picture track 8 is the TAL U-NO-LX synth with channel EQ. Then on bus 1 I inserted "Effect Rack" (a soundtoys plugin). Let's say "effect rack" was just a reverb... Set the reverb at full mix, then use the bus 1 send on track 8's channel strip to blend in the amount of verb that you want.

It's a pretty common way of doing it, rather than putting the reverb on the channel and turning the reverb mix control down. It also allows you to put an EQ on the reverb without effecting the whole track.

I don't have anywhere near the amount of knowledge or experience that the other guys on this thread have, but this is how I do it, at least in the mixing stage. Sometimes I'll use an outboard compressor (like a Distressor) in the guitar signal chain going in, but it's never doing a whole lot of squashing. Just adding a little color and oomph. Recently picked up a Universal Audio Arrow, which i can effectively do the same thing by inserting an LA-2A plugin that's running at (and by) the interface's input, rather than Logic.

btw, Soundtoys LittlePlate is really great for a reverb plugin without too many options and parameters that you can just bring up and sounds great without a lot of effort.

View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail

John Macy

 

From:
Rockport TX/Denver CO
Post  Posted 11 Mar 2019 7:09 am    
Reply with quote

Yeah, the Sound Toys plate is really nice. I grew up on and have owned plate reverbs over the years, and am pretty picky about them. The Valhalla plug is nice too, and I'm fixing to get the one by Brian Charles out of Boston called the Transatlantic plate, which I am hearing raves about. After swearing for years I wasn't going to keep one due to the size, weight and isolation, I've got my eye on a new Pluto plate, that let's you use your own choice of amplifier driver and preamps for the pickups. Plus you can recall the damper plate setting remotely...close to six grand with the shipping Sad
_________________
John Macy
Rockport, TX
Engineer/Producer/Steel Guitar
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website

Godfrey Arthur

 

From:
3rd Rock
Post  Posted 29 Mar 2019 9:35 pm    
Reply with quote

I don't think the plugins sound like the devices they were digitized from but they try and get the same type of functions as the hardware. Perhaps over time they will get closer to the original effect.

Compression needs to be used with the ear, not really the dials.

There is so much going on in a mix that to tweak one track with compression, how that track sits up against the others will call for at times unorthodox usage of a compressor.


Then there's the side-chain ability of compressors/gates to control those functions using the triggering of other instruments.

Like side-chaining the bass guitar using the kick drum.




For reverb you could use an AUX send rather than put the reverb on the track itself, bussing the desired track to the AUX channel with the reverb plugin. This way the track is dry and you can adjust the amount of reverb without burying the main track in reverb which only makes the instrument sound further away unless that far away sound is your purpose.

Reverbs can be stereo or set to mono so it appears at the center, behind instead of left and right.

Learn to use the functions of your reverb plugin as those settings can create numerous effects of reverb, many of which you've heard on other recordings but can now figure out what was done to get those effects.
_________________
ShoBud The Pro 1
YES it's my REAL NAME!
Ezekiel 33:7
View user's profile Send private message

Mark van Allen


From:
Watkinsville, Ga. USA
Post  Posted 30 Mar 2019 9:43 am    
Reply with quote

Some great posts on this thread. While I’ll agree on the more transparent useage of compression on classic/ vintage records, there ARE some notable exceptions with compression as “effect”, just a couple of examples being Lowell George’s slide sound, and the acoustic guitar on tracks like “Suite Judy Blue Eyes”. Both two serial 1176’s, I believe.
_________________
Stop by the Steel Store at: www.markvanallen.com
www.musicfarmstudio.com
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website


All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Jump to:  

Our Online Catalog
Strings, CDs, instruction,
steel guitars & accessories

www.SteelGuitarShopper.com

Please review our Forum Rules and Policies

Steel Guitar Forum LLC
PO Box 237
Mount Horeb, WI 53572 USA


Click Here to Send a Donation

Email admin@steelguitarforum.com for technical support.


BIAB Styles
Ray Price Shuffles for
Band-in-a-Box

by Jim Baron
HTTP