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Author Topic:  Treble Clef, Guitar Clef, or Grand Staff?
Jeremiah Wade

 

From:
Bladenboro, NC
Post  Posted 18 Feb 2019 1:58 pm    
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What is the best clef when using standard musical notation? For the e9th tuning, its seems that the guitar or treble clef would suffice. How about c6th? I was thinking the grand staff may be the best. Let me know your thoughts please.
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Bob Hoffnar


From:
Austin, Tx
Post  Posted 18 Feb 2019 3:02 pm    
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I prefer treble clef but sometimes get music written in grand staff. I have a hard time with bass clef and leger lines so I will often rewrite the music into treble clef with notes for the octave displacement.
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b0b


From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
Post  Posted 18 Feb 2019 3:12 pm    
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Treble clef for E9th. C clef works well for the range of C6th if you don't want to use a grand staff. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clef
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Earnest Bovine


From:
Los Angeles CA USA
Post  Posted 18 Feb 2019 3:20 pm    
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b0b wrote:
C clef works well for the range of C6th


Not everybody enjoys reading alto & tenor clefs as much as you & I do. So I think guitar clef is best for most situations. C6 open strings look like this:

and I think 4 ledger lines below the staff is readable. (You would have 5 for the rare case of open low C string lowered to A.) Even for high passages you would rarely need more than 4 ledger lines above the staff.
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Jeremiah Wade

 

From:
Bladenboro, NC
Post  Posted 18 Feb 2019 7:05 pm    
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Thanks, guitar clef may be the way to go. Covers both tunings.
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Andy Henriksen

 

From:
Michigan, USA
Post  Posted 19 Feb 2019 8:29 am    
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When you say "guitar clef" is that the same as the standard treble clef?
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Jeremiah Wade

 

From:
Bladenboro, NC
Post  Posted 19 Feb 2019 8:43 am    
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Six string guitar sounds an octave lower than written.
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Andy Henriksen

 

From:
Michigan, USA
Post  Posted 19 Feb 2019 9:11 am    
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Jeremiah Wade wrote:
Six string guitar sounds an octave lower than written.

Ah, yes! Thank you!
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b0b


From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
Post  Posted 19 Feb 2019 9:40 am    
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That's what the 8 under the treble clef means.
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Erv Niehaus


From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
Post  Posted 19 Feb 2019 11:39 am    
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When I tab, I like to see both the treble clef and the bass clef, especially when trying to figure out the chords. Very Happy
Erv
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Bobby Nelson


From:
North Carolina, USA
Post  Posted 20 Feb 2019 8:42 am    
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Wow! Even though I was taught to read ,music on piano first, then saxophone and later 6-string guitar, I never knew (or was told, or taught etc) that the guitar was an octave below the treble clef. Hmm, certainly do learn things all the time.
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Mike Perlowin


From:
Los Angeles CA
Post  Posted 23 Feb 2019 10:41 am    
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This seems like the right place to mention that I've written a short (4 pages) article about how to read music on the E9 neck, using the pedals, which I will send for free to anybody who requests it.

My method is not quick or easy. It requires fair amount of work and study. But it really works. If you follow the instructions in the article, you won't be able to look at a piece of sheet music and instantly ply it, the way classical musicians do. But you will be able to look at that sheet music and figure out how to play it.

Please send all requests for the article to me via E-mail and not a PM, so I can attach the file to the reply.
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Fred Treece


From:
California, USA
Post  Posted 24 Feb 2019 10:12 am    
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Mike Perlowin wrote:
This seems like the right place to mention that I've written a short (4 pages) article about how to read music on the E9 neck, using the pedals, which I will send for free to anybody who requests it.

My method is not quick or easy. It requires fair amount of work and study. But it really works. If you follow the instructions in the article, you won't be able to look at a piece of sheet music and instantly ply it, the way classical musicians do. But you will be able to look at that sheet music and figure out how to play it.

Please send all requests for the article to me via E-mail and not a PM, so I can attach the file to the reply.

IÒ€ℒm glad somebody brought this up. It seems to me that regular sheet music would not even begin to explain how a piece should be played on pedal steel, no matter what staff is used. I was imagining markings all over the place, compromising for differences in copedent, etc. So, out of curiosity mostly, IÒ€ℒm sending you a request, Mike.
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b0b


From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
Post  Posted 24 Feb 2019 10:24 am    
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I sometimes mark up a sheet with fret numbers. It makes things a lot easier when I return to it a few months later.
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Bobby Nelson


From:
North Carolina, USA
Post  Posted 25 Feb 2019 3:15 am    
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Bob and Mike, Do you guys find a lot of call to read music? I know there were a lot of jobs that were simply unavailable to me because I was unable to sight read music for guitar and bass - even though I could read Nashville Numbers.
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Mike Perlowin


From:
Los Angeles CA
Post  Posted 25 Feb 2019 3:48 am    
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Bobby Nelson wrote:
Bob and Mike, Do you guys find a lot of call to read music? I know there were a lot of jobs that were simply unavailable to me because I was unable to sight read music for guitar and bass - even though I could read Nashville Numbers.


My thing is transcribing and playing classical music. All this music is written in standard notation. I don't do sessions or gigs, I give concerts to the classical music community. Often the people I play for have never previously seen a pedal steel guitar.
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Bobby Nelson


From:
North Carolina, USA
Post  Posted 25 Feb 2019 4:06 am    
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Wow, that's interesting Mike. My first 4 years of guitar study was classical and flamenco.Are you playing traditional classical guitar pieces?
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Mike Perlowin


From:
Los Angeles CA
Post  Posted 25 Feb 2019 4:25 am    
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Bobby, I play an arrangement of Francesco Terrega's "Recuerdos de la Alhambra," but I "steelified" it. It's quite different from the original composition.

I've recorded 3 CDs. The 2 web sites in my signature contain abut 90 minutes of my stuff between them.

A friend made this video of my interpretation of Claude Debussy's "Prelude to the Afternoon of a Faun." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9woO5AL7wko

This track was recorded with just 3 instruments; steel, B-bender tele and bass. I used an E bow on both the steel and the tele.
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b0b


From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
Post  Posted 25 Feb 2019 7:20 am    
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Bobby Nelson wrote:
Bob and Mike, Do you guys find a lot of call to read music? I know there were a lot of jobs that were simply unavailable to me because I was unable to sight read music for guitar and bass - even though I could read Nashville Numbers.

Frankly, no. A total of 3 times in 44 years of gigging:
  1. Patsy Cline show
  2. a western swing band with twin lead parts
  3. an orchestra "pops" tribute to "country legends"
The 3rd one had the worst written music, oddly enough. The arranger had no idea of what a steel guitar does. I ended up, with the conductor's approval, playing more appropriate steel parts than what was written most of the time.

I use written music to learn songs at home. I like reading melodies from fake books. It's better than playing by ear because you get the composer's intent rather than a performer's interpretation.
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Erv Niehaus


From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
Post  Posted 25 Feb 2019 8:32 am    
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All my tabs are written from sheet music written in the treble and bass clefs.
I write out the tabs by just looking at the music and then I play it. Very Happy
Erv
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Bobby Nelson


From:
North Carolina, USA
Post  Posted 25 Feb 2019 11:08 am    
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My teacher was big on Terrega, and I'm pretty sure I played that tune _ I know I played Rumorous de Caleta (please don't hold me these spellings, this was almost 50 yrs ago), which has a similar sounding name. He had me in 2 books: one of Terrega, and one of Fernado Sor.

Bob wrote:
Quote:
The 3rd one had the worst written music, oddly enough. The arranger had no idea of what a steel guitar does. I ended up, with the conductor's approval, playing more appropriate steel parts than what was written most of the time.


I heard, I believe it was Lloyd Green sway exactly the same thing about some gigs in studios in NY. Whoever it was, said they acted like they were reading and put parts appropriate for steel in, and the producer w3as pleased enough.
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Mike Perlowin


From:
Los Angeles CA
Post  Posted 25 Feb 2019 1:21 pm    
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b0b wrote:


I use written music to learn songs at home. I like reading melodies from fake books. It's better than playing by ear because you get the composer's intent rather than a performer's interpretation.


Several years ago I decided to play the old Frankie Avalon song "Venus." I could figure out most of song by ear, but there was one chord that threw me. It was on the word THINGS in the bridge. I looked at the sheet music, saw what it was, and played it, no problem.

Many people can either read music or play by ear, but not both. I think every musician should learn both skills. I believe that being able to read music helps me play by ear better, and being able to play by ear makes me a better reader.
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Bobby Nelson


From:
North Carolina, USA
Post  Posted 26 Feb 2019 2:50 am    
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Mike Perlowin said:
Quote:
I looked at the sheet music, saw what it was, and played it, no problem.


Yes. For years I wanted to play jazz guitar, in the style of Wes Montgomery, and stupidly tried to "ear it out" - that's the way Wes did it isn't it? I had figured. I could get most melodies that way, but lost many nuances of the chord progressions. Then, I took a lesson or two from a local jazz upright bassist, and he steered me toward the Jamie Abersol series of jazz standard rhythm tracks, that came with a book with the lead sheets. Even with my poor reading skills, it was like night and day, in terms of understanding where the song was going.
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Ken Byng


From:
Southampton, England
Post  Posted 26 Feb 2019 3:58 am    
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A couple of years ago, I was out to dinner with Nashville steeler Mike Johnson and his wife Joanie. I had previously been invited by Mike to see him in action on a studio recording session, where he was leading the arrangements. He showed me a sheet of paper with the number system, and between him and the other players, they knocked out an arrangement in a relatively short period of time.

I told Mike that in the UK, most sessions are arranged by a musical director (MD), who writes all of the various musicians parts in notation. Because the MDs don't understand the pedal steel, they either write the steel parts as basic chordal glissandos or just write a chord chart and leave it to the steel player to come up with something that fits. Mike J was incredulous that I could read music and transfer that skill to the pedal steel.

The more I look at the number system, I can see how it can save time and also take the responsibility of arranginging away from a musical director and give it to the players. If I was writing a part for E9 I would write it all under the auspice of the treble clef.
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Ian Rae


From:
Redditch, England
Post  Posted 26 Feb 2019 5:39 am    
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Bobby Nelson wrote:
My teacher was big on Terrega - please don't hold me these spellings

For those who want to google him his name was TÑrrega. Probably his best known piece is Recuerdos de la Alhambra.

I was amazed to discover recently that all the guitar music by Granados and Albéniz that we're used to hearing is arranged. They were pianists and never wrote for guitar at all!
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