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Topic: Keyless or key head |
Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 1 Feb 2019 2:03 pm |
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I'll grant keyless guitars one thing though, you can shorten the throw on your pedals and knee levers.
Especially, the ones that handle the 5th & 6th strings.
With a keyless tuner you don't have to stretch or relax those long pieces of string behind the roller nut.
And that is the same reason you can have a longer scale with a keyless head. You're not having to deal with the long strings behind the nut.
That's why Excel can have a 25" scale with a keyless head.
When the Big E was working on designing a pedal steel, he experimented with different scale lengths and he determined that 24" to 24 1/4" is about all you could go without experiencing excessive string breakage. 
Erv |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 1 Feb 2019 5:56 pm
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| Erv Niehaus wrote: |
With a keyless tuner you don't have to stretch or relax those long pieces of string behind the roller nut.
And that is the same reason you can have a longer scale with a keyless head. You're not having to deal with the long strings behind the nut.
That's why Excel can have a 25" scale with a keyless head.
When the Big E was working on designing a pedal steel, he experimented with different scale lengths and he determined that 24" to 24 1/4" is about all you could go without experiencing excessive string breakage.
Erv |
So then, if you eliminate the keyhead (which is 5"-6" of string length on most guitars) you can only extend the scale length by another 3/4" 
I see what you're saying...but why not even longer? |
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Kevin Fix
From:
Michigan, USA
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Posted 1 Feb 2019 7:26 pm
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| Have not noticed a change in tone but I prefer the traditional keyed head. My primary guitar is a Sho Bud Super Pro. I agree with Erv. Darn Roosters anyway. Be like Ghost Chickens In The Sky!!!! It's a real song believe it or not. |
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Norbert Dengler
From:
germany
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Posted 1 Feb 2019 10:45 pm
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bob. i dont doubt that that was the case wit your 2 keylesses but believe me, this one sounds as good as it gets!
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Meh.. the 2 keyless guitars i had are both still being built, so i won't mention brands, but neither was all that great at staying in tune, and to be honest, they didn't sound good to me either... bob
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Daniel McKee
From:
Corinth Mississippi
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Posted 1 Feb 2019 10:54 pm
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| I always enjoy the keyless discussions because keyless steels really are something I find interesting. Some people prefer a tighter feel of the strings which is possible with long scale. The longest scale I’m aware of is Excel with 25.5 and the shortest is GFI’s Aero model which is as best I recall 22.5. It’s really amazing st the variety of options we have when buying a steel guitar. I am seeing a lot of keyless models now, not all big name players but definitely people that play with bands and at music venues. I personally like to hear G.D. Walker play (he has some great YouTube videos) so if your curious about a keyless Williams check his videos out. |
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Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
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Posted 2 Feb 2019 8:54 am
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Donny,
Because of excessive string breakage, you still have the other strings to contend with.
Erv |
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Dwight Lewis
From:
Huntsville, Alabama
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Posted 3 Feb 2019 1:22 am Keyheads Rock/ Keyless Rolls
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I think everyone have good points hat can be referenced to those particular guitars of thet good or bad experience. I played Bobby Seymours' Emmons D10 once and it was the one of the best sounding guitars to me period, I had a Dekley D10 and it lacked character, I sold it; then 2 years later I played an Excel S12 at the same store and it gave me the same warmfuzzy as the Emmons, I have a Dekley S10 converted to keyless(not shortened though)and it has the same character as the Excel/Emmons. As many guitars as I have had the pleasure to play, some(brand/configurations)are consistently the same whether excellent or bad. The look also plays a big part in the sound as well. 
MHO
Dwight
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Dekley (PRS-10C), BMI S12 |
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Dwight Lewis
From:
Huntsville, Alabama
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Posted 3 Feb 2019 1:33 am Keyless/ Keyed
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......Presentation is everything to some folks. I do like carving a roasted chicken without a head attached. But I can say this fact that I have tested, Every MSA Classic or Dekley or Excel single(without pad) I have played S10/12 have had tone and sustain in spades; Every Mullen I've played has had the same. Just my observation of that "roasted chicken" dinner.
Dwight  
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Dekley (PRS-10C), BMI S12 |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 3 Feb 2019 2:41 am
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One reason the keyless design may feel wrong to some is that your left foot on the first pedal is to the left of the nut with a keyhead but to the right on the keyless. The difference is two or three pedal positions.
If you are used to sitting opposite a certain fret with your left leg at a certain angle, it could be off-putting enough to turn you against.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Dwight Lewis
From:
Huntsville, Alabama
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Posted 3 Feb 2019 2:55 am keyless/ keyed
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....So true Ian. But I am just thankful to GOD we have the steelguitar GURU's out there like Buddy E., Jimmy D., Joe Wright, Loyld Green Mickey A.,etc.. that can show us how to make that "Chicken" soup into Chicken dinner regardless if it keyed or keyless.
Dwight
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Dekley (PRS-10C), BMI S12 |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 3 Feb 2019 4:08 am
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...keep carving that bird...
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Johnie King
From:
Tennessee, USA
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Posted 3 Feb 2019 6:31 am
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Norbert your steel looks to be as long as a Short key head Emmons I’m thinking the extra
Length especially strings 1 through 6 adds tone to your steel I’m sure this is why the builder chose too add extra length to the body. A very cleverly designed steel Keyless with the tone of a keyhead model!! |
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Randy Schneider
From:
SW New Mexico, USA
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Posted 3 Feb 2019 6:53 am
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| Ian Rae wrote: |
One reason the keyless design may feel wrong to some is that your left foot on the first pedal is to the left of the nut with a keyhead but to the right on the keyless. The difference is two or three pedal positions.
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Not necessarily, at least from my very limited experience. My CMI keyless has the first pedal just outside the nut (to the player's left). Scale length is 25 inches. |
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Johnie King
From:
Tennessee, USA
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Posted 3 Feb 2019 7:06 am
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The Schild steel
I would thing this extra length helps with tone.
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Norbert Dengler
From:
germany
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Posted 3 Feb 2019 1:01 pm
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thanks Johnny, yes, my Schild is about as long as my keyed GFI I guess. so its not as short as you might expect from a keyless model.
but the tone and performance are phenomenal, its a shame there's no Schild room at the steel guitar conventions. the players there would love it.
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Mike Vallandigham
From:
Martinez, CA
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Posted 3 Feb 2019 1:50 pm
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Here are my two guitars. I'll say that the best sounding guitar I've owned was a Mullen RP with Tru-Tones. Still mad I sold it. I do think that the extra string length in keyed guitars makes for that "sound" along with the cast necks and wood bodies.
The blue one is about 2008, and the Green one is 2018. Both are E9/C6 with 8 and 7.
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Johnie King
From:
Tennessee, USA
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Posted 3 Feb 2019 4:37 pm
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Norbert I’m wondering what the availability is for Schild Steel is here in the US. The undercarriage looks like a Swiss watch. The case is a show stopper too. I’m guessing the pedal an knee lever action is very good also. Notice the pedal board an pedal rods
Stores in the back of the case that’s a plus to me. |
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Norbert Dengler
From:
germany
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Posted 4 Feb 2019 12:29 am
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johnie, its not German engineering, its Swiss, which means its topper than top  you propably never sat behind a guitar that works so great. the gentleman who makes em is a genius. a very modest humble man who built high tech mechanical stuff for all kinds of needs all of his life. making steel guitars is his passion besides his other projects. a brave guy who surely doesn't make any money on making them. they may seem expensive, but believe me he makes those guitar without financial ambitions.
I couldn't afford one but he had a used one that he gave me for a more than fair price.
He s not a businessman or marketing kind of guy and somehow not easy to get in contact with. best way would be to contact him by mail, could take a while to get a respond though. |
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Rich Upright
From:
Florida, USA
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Posted 4 Feb 2019 3:27 pm
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" I do think the keyed guitars look more like a real guitar to the general public on stage and perhaps make a flashier presentation."
Not really...You would be amazed at how many people come up to me in a club & identify me as the keyboard player. The general public are clueless.
I have never heard a keyless guitar that has great tone, and I have heard some great players playing keyless live that woulda sounded so much better had they been playing keyhead guitars.
To me, the best sound is D-10,Aluminum necks, keyhead equipped.
_________________
A couple D-10s,some vintage guitars & amps, & lotsa junk in the gig bag. |
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Ross Shafer
From:
Petaluma, California
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Posted 5 Feb 2019 7:51 am
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I'll probably get some heat on this....no need though as I do not have a strong opinion as to which tuner design is best tone wise. Although I do feel (for obvious reasons) that keyless guitars can sound every bit as awesome as key-headed guitars.
There's some mighty strong opinions stated on this subject. Blind comparisons on this subject would be very interesting and informative.
In my experience, strong tone opinions can take a hit once put to a true blind comparison. |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 5 Feb 2019 8:11 am
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The length of the string in the keyhead creates a vibration which may or may not be in tune with the note you are playing. It helps if that vibration is an in-tune musical note, but even that can work against you in certain keys.
When you get up into Huey-land on the middle strings, the keyhead vibrations are in the same neighborhood as the notes you are playing. On a Sho~Bud Pro 1, for example, the distance from the 24th fret to the changer is the same as the distance from the 5th string key to the roller nut.
This is obviously going to have some effect on tone, and the effect will be more pronounced on some notes than others. Whether that is desirable or not is a matter of opinion. Like Ross, I have no strong opinion on the matter. I play and enjoy both keyed and keyless guitars, and I appreciate the tonal differences.
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-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Johnie King
From:
Tennessee, USA
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Posted 5 Feb 2019 10:29 am
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I agree with Bob an Ross, I’m sure they are some Keyless steels out there that sound as good as a keyed model steel.And that most Pros could be pleased with the sound they get from them. It boils down to the look like y’all said they look like a headless Chicken.
I do know that when you use a tuner on a Keyless that the note you choose shows perfectly in one place an a keyhead model will dance around like Elvis. I’m guessing the over tones bihind the key head is causing this. |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 5 Feb 2019 2:48 pm
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| Greg Cutshaw wrote: |
How could anyone not love these? Keep in mind that the Excel has 12 strings, two unique extended 12 string tunings and the equivalent of 8 pedals and 10 knee levers:
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This is my version of Greg's picture.
The Excel is a standard(ish) B6/E9, not the 4-wheel drive version. The Williams has fewer changes, a shorter scale and a very traditional look and construction - a contrast to the rather futuristic Excel. A lot of players have two identical guitars but I took the opportunity to have two very different ones. They have identical pickups so that I can truly compare them. Although they have a different feel I cannot say which I prefer. At no time do I wish they had machine heads.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 5 Feb 2019 4:52 pm Headless Chicken?
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| Johnie King wrote: |
| It boils down to the look like y’all said they look like a headless Chicken. |
<center>
I love the look of my Sierra keyless.
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-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Johnie King
From:
Tennessee, USA
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Posted 5 Feb 2019 5:13 pm
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| Yes Bob I love the look of the new Sierra steels I think I’m wrong about the Keyless sound I just haven’t had the right one. I had a session model Sierra that sounded very good an you could actually tune it with out a wrench. But a Keyless holds there tuneing so well you rarely need a wrench. |
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