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Topic: 2nd string raise - Push Pull |
Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 1 Nov 2018 1:53 am |
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Those that have it, yay or nay ?
I understand it needs a bunch of built in "slop" . I would like to add it, my P Pull has a very positive 1/2 and whole note 2nd string drop, I don't want to lose that.
I have this on my L-II and pretty much all previous ALL PULL Steels. I don't see many P Pulls with the 2nd string raise.
Not a big deal to NOT have it, plenty of ways to go around it .
I'm not talking about the MUSIC, but rather the mechanics. Please don't reply with how many ways to work around the pull musically and how many fret positions can give me the same thing.
Thoughts ?
_________________
Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years
CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website |
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Pete Burak
From:
Portland, OR USA
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Posted 1 Nov 2018 2:58 am
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I have a half-step raise on my Push-Pull S12U on that string.
I am not sure about how it would affect your half-stop though.
Mechanically, on my Steel, it is like any other string with a raise and a lower (both half-steps in my case). It works fine.
For you it would have to accomodate a whole-step lower, so a little more slack/distance before the raise will engage. |
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mtulbert
From:
Plano, Texas 75023
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Posted 1 Nov 2018 3:30 am
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Tony,
I just got a Push Pull and this set up on my guitar along with the 1st string raise to G#. There is a lot of travel on this but I think in my case the culprit is the 1st string and not the second. I believe that there is a way that you can shorten the travel on the 1st string which would make the travel less.
BTW my feel stop for the lowers is pretty solid and this raise does not seem to influence that at all.
_________________
Mark T
Rittenberry Laquer D10, Rittenberry Prestige SD10, Revelation Preamp,Revelation Octal Preamp,Lexicon PCM 92 Reverb, Furlong Cabinet |
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Mike Scaggs
From:
Nashville, TN
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Posted 1 Nov 2018 4:14 am
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The fact that you would want to raise your 2nd string should not effect the feel of that half stop lower, especially if it is setup properly to start with. There are several proven methods.
The use of an extended bell-crank ( You will have to make one ) on 1 and 2 raises will make this task WAY easier with less travel for sure on the raises. There are other Mickey Mouse ways to get this done but IMHO they are amateur at best, like removing the lowering tension spring to allow for high degree off pull, bad idea to me as tuning becomes difficult...
So, yes you can do this with the proper setup and not have a world of slop.
My 2 Cents
Scaggs
_________________
I can explain it to you but I can't understand it for you
Zum double Hybrid 8x9, 64 Twin (JBLs), p2pAmps Bad-Dawg, p2pAmps Tremendous Reverb, Visit my website www.p2pamps.com |
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 1 Nov 2018 4:58 am
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thx all, yes it's the timing of 1 and 2 which would be most important.
And yes, I also know of the extended bell crank which is the only real way to do this.
A dual hole ( for the swivels) extended bell crank can also be used. One hole at the very bottom and one in the middle., kinda like an all pull. Apparently both pulls can come off of the same bell crank.
I don't believe shortening the 1st string pull is in the cards, it's at max right now , thats a tuff pull.
Still thinking about it. Appreciate the responses.
_________________
Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years
CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website |
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Bobby Hearn
From:
Henrietta, Tx
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Posted 1 Nov 2018 6:38 am
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| I had this raise on my all pull and love it but when I had my pp set up, I was discouraged to have it due to mechanical issues and this was from a very reputable push pull mechanic, so I decided to live without it and improved my slanting ability. |
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Nathan Golub
From:
Durham, NC
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Posted 1 Nov 2018 10:41 am
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One of my pp's has the 1st string whole-step and 2nd string half-step raise, the other has just the 1st string whole step raise. Both guitars have the change on the RKL lever. Oh, and both are D10's about a year apart. I've never noticed much of a difference in feel between the two, or on the RKR 1/2 & whole note drop on the 2nd string. Well, now that I think of it there's some difference in feel, but not so much that it stands out beyond normal differences from one guitar to the next.
It's a fun change but like you said, not very necessary. I play the guitar without the 2nd string raise much more often, but the preference doesn't have anything to do with that specific change or the feel of those levers. |
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Tony Glassman
From:
The Great Northwest
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Posted 1 Nov 2018 11:52 am
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Emmons guitars with factory-installed 2nd string half steps are usually equipped with a spring that holds the 2nd string changer-finger in the full raise position @ rest. The string is tuned open to D#. The half stop is achieved by adjusting bottom row hex screw so that it makes contact when the raise finger as is lowered to D. The “stopâ€-feel is created because the changer finger meets the additional resistance provided by the lowering spring .
The full lower is tuned @ the top hex screw. So if you are planning to raise the 2nd string, you have to lose the factory ½ stop. You’ll need to add another ½ stop device to achieve the stop détente. Many people install a swivel on there are cabinet cross strap and use a spring loaded rod attached to the knee lever cross shaft mounted bell crank.
Regarding the 1st string full tone raise, I’m one of the guys that uses the “Mickey Mouse “solution. I remove the lowering spring from the 1st string so that string tension alone holds the changer finger rearward against a backed out lowering hex screw tuned to F#. That gives me enough changer finger excursion to accomplish the full tone raise, which is tuned to G# when the finger hits the body in front of the pickup well. Also, the endplate raise hex screw was removed cause it served no further purpose. I considered using an extended bell crank or a slave-crank but opted out, because either would stiffen (and shorten) the pull. I already have 2 other on the knee lever, so I didn’t want a stiffer lever.
Anyway, my push-pull is set up with the “non-factoryâ€2nd string half stop and “Mickey Mouse “1st spring raise. It works just fine and holds tuning without problem.
Last edited by Tony Glassman on 2 Nov 2018 7:25 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 1 Nov 2018 1:21 pm
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yes Tony Glassman , thx, I am well aware. My P Pull is the factory 2nd string set-up as you described. This is why I am asking.
Tony (the other one )
_________________
Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years
CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website |
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Earnest Bovine
From:
Los Angeles CA USA
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Posted 1 Nov 2018 1:31 pm
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| Tony Glassman wrote: |
Emmons guitars with factory-installed 2nd string half steps are usually equipped with a spring that holds the 2nd string changer-finger in the full raise position @ rest. .... The “stopâ€-feel is created because the changer finger meets the additional resistance provided by the lowering spring .
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Slightly off-topic, but actually there is a better way to get half-stops on a push-pull:
For the fist half of the lever movement, instead of pushing against the spring that keeps the string raised, you just release the tension on that spring. The string tension relaxes to the half-stop pitch, but you haven't started pushing yet, and you don't have to start the push immediately when the string reaches half-stop pitch. Instead, if you like, you can have a "dead zone" of lever travel, a narrow or wide range of lever positions where the string is lowered to its first stop, instead of having to stop your knee at exactly the right place when you feel a stop. This allows me to put two half stops on my RKL, for example, and get them both in tune easily and independently.
You could even have the second half of the knee lever move only a different string without continuing to lower the string that was lowered in the first half of its travel. It's a bit hard to explain in words, but easy if you look at my video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tlXL6eYaAQ |
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Mike Wilson
From:
Mansfield, Ohio, USA
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Posted 7 Nov 2018 7:04 am
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| I put it on all of my push pull guitars. It's not that hard to do. Just get the timing right. Whole tone raise on the first string and half tone raise on the second string. |
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Mike Wilson
From:
Mansfield, Ohio, USA
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Posted 7 Nov 2018 7:05 am
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| I put it on all of my push pull guitars. It's not that hard to do. Just get the timing right. Whole tone raise on the first string and half tone raise on the second string. |
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Henry Matthews
From:
Texarkana, Ark USA
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Posted 8 Nov 2018 4:39 pm
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Both my push pulls have the Mickey Mouse hookup on first string raise and second string half stop and I just left them that way. I’ve never seen a need to raise 2nd string. As Mike said, there are better ways of doing it, the longer bell crank is best for raise on 1st.. Also, I like the MSA type half stop and last one I did, I used the cross flat bar across body of some guitars as an anchor point for the half stop spring. Worked really good however, my half stop feels good on my guitars using the spring deal. I also put the fake split on 6th string lower. It’s really not fake because it works great, lol.
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Henry Matthews
D-10 Magnum, 8 &5, dark rose color
D-10 1974 Emmons cut tail, fat back,rosewood, 8&5
Nashville 112 amp, Fishman Loudbox Performer amp, Hilton pedal, Goodrich pedal,BJS bar, Kyser picks, Live steel Strings. No effects, doodads or stomp boxes. |
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Jason Stillwell
From:
Caddo, OK, USA
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Posted 13 Nov 2018 10:56 am
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| I installed a 2nd string raise on my push-pull. I was already raising the 1st string a whole tone, and I remember, after I first got the guitar, having a terribly far throw for that RKL lever. I changed holes so that I'm getting the most pull for the least amount of throw (all with just standard p/p parts). I do have it timed so that all that lever's pulls reach their apex at the same time. (I'm also raising String 7 a half-step and lowering String 3 on C6 with that lever.) All that gives me a pretty good built-in half-stop for String 1! |
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