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Topic: tuning |
Rene Brosseau
From:
Chatham,Ontario, Canada
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Posted 16 Oct 2018 1:50 pm |
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I'm presuming that the people that tune their E's to 441-442 is to compensate for the cabinet drop(depending on which guitar they have), so that when A & B pedals are depressed, the E's drop down to 440 ? I'm presuming here... so the more the cabinet drop, the more you compensate
I've tried both ways...just wanted some opinions...I've got a PetersonStrobo plusHD, & they have emailed me some of the configurations of the steel settings..some of the E's are at 0 & some are as far as +9.8
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Franklin #130, Melobar Skreemer, Wechter Scheerhorn Resonator, Nashville 112, Boss DD 3 &/or Profex II |
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James Collett
From:
San Dimas, CA
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Posted 16 Oct 2018 1:56 pm
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I tune to 442 because of how flattening thirds (e.g. String 3 and 6 open or 4 and 8 with F lever) makes the average tonal center of the tuning flat in comparison to other instruments. Tuning sharp a few hertz means that more of the chord positions available sound in tune when played open. My understanding is that this is why Jeff Newman revised his tuning charts as well (which I believe are programmed into the Peterson).
As far as cabinet drop is concerned, it doesn't bother me on my current guitar, but the Carter Starter I used to have had noticeable drop on the Es, so I would split the difference on their tuning between no pedals and A+B pedals down--that way neither was too far out.
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James Collett |
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Rene Brosseau
From:
Chatham,Ontario, Canada
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Posted 16 Oct 2018 2:10 pm response
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hmmmm...makes sense.
Jeff's original & new settings are in the Peterson as OE9 & SE9...the SE9 is +9.8 on the E's...wow, quite high I think.
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Franklin #130, Melobar Skreemer, Wechter Scheerhorn Resonator, Nashville 112, Boss DD 3 &/or Profex II |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 16 Oct 2018 3:03 pm
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| The suggested tuning for a Stage One like mine puts the E’s at 442.5, which I believe is right in that +9.8 cents area. The F’s are at 436.5, so yeah it’s a pretty wide offset. |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 16 Oct 2018 11:26 pm
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What James says, plus tuning a hair sharp in general avoids being caught flat at the nut where you can't correct. The ear is more tolerant of sharpness.
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Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Steve Sycamore
From:
Sweden
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Posted 17 Oct 2018 6:43 am
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But there are real and important reasons not to add the 2.5 cent rise in pitch. For one, the offset applies to an "open position" with no bar. In that case you are probably playing an E or A chord or something related to one. You want the root tone to be on the mark.
The second thing to consider is that really good musicians are very familiar with pitch deviations from equal temperament. Singers, violinists and others who can vary pitch microtonally do so automatically to fit the harmonic or melodic situation well and make the music vivid and alive. I believe you heighten the pedal steel guitar's use of Just Tuning when you do not complicate and smear the pitches by adding that type of offset.
But sure, especially if you play live at small venues in rougher settings where many players are not quite in tune it can be useful to consider that offset. |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 17 Oct 2018 9:14 am Jeff Newman playing City Of New Orleans
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https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gY53zX4D9ik
In the open position, and using harmonics, as if to demonstrate how his tuning offset is supposed to work. Did he tune this guitar OE9? or SE9? Can anybody tell? It sounds good, whatever it is.
E’s at 442.5 don’t work for me, but my playing is not on hundreds of popular recordings and my methods haven’t taught thousands of players. |
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Pete Burak
From:
Portland, OR USA
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Posted 17 Oct 2018 10:36 am
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I use a Boss TU-12 with a needle, and when I go on/off the AB pedals, I tune the E's so they go equally about a hair above/below the straight-up mark.
Most of the rest of the tuning is as beat-less as possible with the E's as reference, on all common pedal/lever combos. |
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C. D. Maclean
From:
Scotland
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Posted 17 Oct 2018 10:14 pm
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Hello Everyone. First post from a Scotsman!
Ive been reading lots of threads on your site re tuning and intonation and experimenting for some time now so thought I might join in the discussion.
After getting a Peterson, I had to decide how to program the sweetener and I wasn’t happy just to use a preset without knowing what it was doing. I wanted JI with perfect triads in as many places as possible so my approach is to consider the open E9 as actually three different key challenges - E A and C#. Working from a slightly sharp middle E starting point at 165.5 Hz, it all works great and A ends up at 220 / 440. For the notes outside the triads, Ive set up a spreadsheet with all the just ratios put in so that I can compare what sounds good with what it should be. There’s always going to be some combinations that work better than others and I’m using compensator rods on the G# and F#’s but overall, I’m a happy bunny! When all the strings are on the money, a guitar just comes alive.
Cheers
Calum |
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Steve Sycamore
From:
Sweden
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Posted 17 Oct 2018 11:31 pm
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Hi Calum,
I came to the same conclusion that A at 440 Hz is the optimal anchor. That makes a JI E slightly sharp at a normalized 440.5 Hz if I remember correctly. I also agree that a nicely set tuning, that is, very close to pure JI for each of the keys you can play really fires up what the guitar can express. It illuminates and beautifies royally the music you are making. |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 20 Oct 2018 12:30 pm
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I like the way you think Calum.
Because cabinet drop and individual guitar resonances vary, I suggest individual tuning charts for each guitar you own (or will own).
Get an accurate tuner with a needle (even if you're going to use the Peterson), tune the Es to 0 cents, A=440, then tune the guitar by ear and write down the deviations recorded by the needle (if you're really going persnickety, tune it three times).
Program THOSE numbers into your Peterson.
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2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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C. D. Maclean
From:
Scotland
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Posted 21 Oct 2018 2:57 am
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Hi Lane
Your method is pretty close to what I did. I was running a tuner app on the computer that gave me a hertz display as the Peterson doesn't do that. It dances around a bit but its near enough to see what the frequency is. Here's the chart I made up using 5 limit JI based on my slightly sharp E's.
Then I just started tweaking the Peterson on the site until it was stable with the guitar tuned as near perfect as I could get it. I must have changed it a couple of hundred times since then but it's damn close now! I put in 20 sliders on the preset so that it does most of my pedals and knees as well. I really wish there was a 'press to store note' function on the tuner itself but the method gets there in the end.
I agree that every guitar is going to have its own quirks and needs its own approach but not everyone is as crazy as we are!
Cheers
Calum |
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Jim Park
From:
Carson City, Nv
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Posted 28 Oct 2018 6:07 pm Tuning
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| And then the guitar player puts on a capo and everything goes out the window... |
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Ricky Davis
From:
Bertram, Texas USA
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Posted 28 Oct 2018 6:32 pm
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...and also goes along with what Jim Park just said>
What happens when you yourself puts the bar on the strings; then how do you play in tune. Now the open strings you just tuned to some weird foremat.....vibrate different when under a bar...then the amount of pressure through out the bar makes them vibrate different...and the gauge difference and the way they vibrate under the bar is different then open tuning...and then the bar placement and how straight or in reference to the "fret line" reference.....then what...>so after you tune open to the format you are now tuning to; have you even put the bar on the 7th fret and see how in tune they are with the amount of hutz you tuned them open to...and then the 12th fret and then the 17th fret??? you will see HUGE differences in intonation in harmony and root harmony in all the different bar positions to the scale your pedal steel is.
WEll as a teacher; I just can't come on here with all the hard luck theory...without helping in where to go from here. Here's what I send home with all my students through the years about how I tune and then how to play "intune" with the bar and with many other instruments>
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On E9th Pedal Steel>
Our open tuning is an E tuning with no pedals and a "A" tuning with pedals down.
We are so used to tuning to E 440 but the rest of the world is tuned to A 440.
So if you tune your guitar to E 440 and play an open A chord with pedals down; than you are out of tune with the rest of the world because your "A" note(chord) will be flat (Mainly because of the pull on the guitar when pushing pedals; will drop notes).
So since I and the rest of us are used to tuning to the E note on a Pedal steel guitar from the start; what I would suggest is to push "a" and "b" pedals down and while down; pick your "E" note(highest open "E") and tune it to 440 on your tuner. Now let off your pedals and play that "E" note again and look at where it now lays on your tuner(usually sharp to 440); and that is your "NEW" E note and go ahead and retune the rest of your guitar to that E note reference like your used to(and now with pedals down; your "A" note will be in tune to E440 because your pedals down "E" note is 440.
So the way it turns out for your particular guitar is how much difference there is in the way your guitar re-acts to the pedals pushed.
So now in all probability your open E reference is sharp to E 440; but your "A" chord is now tuned to "A" 440 and you will play in better tune than you ever have; if your not already doing this. It is ok to the ear to be slightly sharp.....but it is never ok to be flat. Sharp adds excitement; and Flat adds Death>to the music.
I alway tune my guitar by ear; as Tom Brumley once told me: "Ricky if you always practice on tuning your guitar by ear; than you are practicing on playing in tune and that is the goal here"!!!.
I do have the notes somewhat memorized where they lay on my tuner for my guitar, for the times that I don't get to make any noise at the gig or don't have time or can't hear. But finding out how your guitar tunes to "A" 440 is VERY important.
Another little practice thing I do at home when I ever practice; is I never practice with reverb and after tuning my steel; I will turn on my metronome that has a "A" 440 pitch to it; and I just warm up and play along with that "A" pitch going and you can play in key of A or E or D or C and I really listen to playing in tune with that pitch while I warm up or work on what ever.
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E9th Pedal steel tuning proceedure
First you tune your "A" note to 440 then with
pedals down tune your "E" note to that "A" 440
note. Now you have the new "E" note reference to
"A" 440.
Tuning the open tuning.
Tune the other E note(4and8)
Tune the G#'s (3and6)to E
Tune the B's (5and10)to E
Tune the F#'s (1and7)to B
Tune the D# to B(2nd string)
Tuning the pedals and knee levers
Tune the A pedal(5and10) to the E note
Tune the B pedal(3and6)to the E note("A"440)
Tune the C pedal(4and5)to the A note
Tune E lower knee(4and8)to the B note
Tune E raise knee(4and8) to the A pedal
Tune D note(9th string) to and "A" note
Tune D# lower 1/2 tone to 9th string
Tune D# lower whole tone to A pedal
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Ricky Davis
Email Ricky: sshawaiian2362@gmail.com |
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